The usefulness of Leg Locks
- Thread starter Hanzou
- Start date
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
You really think someone is going to be able to pull any of that off when a skilled grappler can snap a leg in seconds? You're also ignoring someone getting taken down still having the presence of mind to locate vital areas and start stabbing after ground impact and after they start feeling pain from a broken limb.
CB Jones
Senior Master
Yes.....in the real world people with knives stab wildly.
chances are you are gonna get stabbed numerous times if you don't control the arm with the knife.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
The same world where falling backwards and hitting your head on the ground can knock you out or at least stun you?
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CB Jones
Senior Master
Sure...but my money is still on the guy with the knife.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Okie Dokie.
My uselsss .02....there are many scenarios and ways to do things. It comes down to what you're most comfortable with. I can see it working both ways.
For my perferred way (in my head and how I generally move), quick takedown and run or quick punches. Anything escape. If entagled and your opponent is a grappler, your BJJ is going to come in handy with the leg locks.
For my perferred way (in my head and how I generally move), quick takedown and run or quick punches. Anything escape. If entagled and your opponent is a grappler, your BJJ is going to come in handy with the leg locks.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Not only that, but if you need to prevent your attacker from pursuing you, or getting up again, a leg lock can cripple them.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Sort of. My view is if a move takes a second but doesn't control the knife. It is less risky than if it takes two seconds but you control the knife at the end.
I just think people don't factor in that you are getting stabbed chasing limbs.
CB Jones
Senior Master
True but I think ultimately if you are gonna chase a limb, I think its smarter to chase the one with the knife. That way you don't find the knife stuck between your ribs.
I see your point that leg-locks are very effective, but Hanzou, I wonder if you are really acknowledging about the damage a knife can do? ...in the hands of a determined person, and especially an experienced and determined person? C'mon, this isn't the old BS about stopping BJJ with eye gouges and biting. Knives really do kill.
So you think you would want to close and grapple a guy with a knife? OK. You do that. Given a choice ...I'd rather run away!
BTW, apes grapple, tigers use their knives. I see you chose a tiger for your avatar. Apes are fierce, but my money's on the tiger too!
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I see your point that leg-locks are very effective, but Hanzou, I wonder if you are really acknowledging about the damage a knife can do? ...in the hands of a determined person, and especially an experienced and determined person? C'mon, this isn't the old BS about stopping BJJ with eye gouges and biting. Knives really do kill.
So you think you would want to close and grapple a guy with a knife? OK. You do that. Given a choice ...I'd rather run away!
Obviously if you have the opportunity, you should definitely run away. Hopefully people don't think I'm advocating fighting someone with a knife when you can get away. Clearly you don't always have the opportunity to run away, so you gotta do what you gotta do. If I needed to do a quick leg lock that would put the opponent on their back (possibly have their head hit the concrete and stun them) and give me time to pull a leg lock, I'd do something like this;
Quick level change, fast takedown, fast leg lock. It's one of my favorite takedowns.
And yes, I've done that move on concrete before.
Nah, we grapple too:
We only use our knives if we want to kill you.
My tuppence worth:
1 - Running away
Running away tends to get touted as the "best strategy" for SD, particularly when weapons are involved. I don't subscribe to this...
People run after you, you won't have much of a head start and as soon as you hit an obstacle of some sort they are likely to catch up with you - think of a rout
Of course there are times when it may be appropriate to simply run, but I feel it should be the exception rather than the rule
2 - Damage then run
I believe it's better strategically to cause some damage, targeted at impairing their ability to run, then get away
This is easier than a sub and safer than just running I think
3 - Leg locks
Damaging the ankle or knee would seem to be a good idea in that context
The trick is to do this without getting tangled up
There are plenty of ways to catch the ankle whilst you're on your feet (eg ankle picks, catching kicks, catching the foot after/during a take down) and there are several locks, heel hooks and "banned attacks" to damage the ankle or knee
As others have shown there are some pretty quick ways to get into a heel hook position and these are likely quite surprising attacks so they may be viable if there are not too many other people involved
If the situation presents itself then I think attacking with leg / ankle locks is a good strategy
1 - Running away
Running away tends to get touted as the "best strategy" for SD, particularly when weapons are involved. I don't subscribe to this...
People run after you, you won't have much of a head start and as soon as you hit an obstacle of some sort they are likely to catch up with you - think of a rout
Of course there are times when it may be appropriate to simply run, but I feel it should be the exception rather than the rule
2 - Damage then run
I believe it's better strategically to cause some damage, targeted at impairing their ability to run, then get away
This is easier than a sub and safer than just running I think
3 - Leg locks
Damaging the ankle or knee would seem to be a good idea in that context
The trick is to do this without getting tangled up
There are plenty of ways to catch the ankle whilst you're on your feet (eg ankle picks, catching kicks, catching the foot after/during a take down) and there are several locks, heel hooks and "banned attacks" to damage the ankle or knee
As others have shown there are some pretty quick ways to get into a heel hook position and these are likely quite surprising attacks so they may be viable if there are not too many other people involved
If the situation presents itself then I think attacking with leg / ankle locks is a good strategy
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
It is more intuitive. But I don't think people catch that arm very often. And so wind up not defending at all.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
LoL! Gotta love Krav Maga.
CB Jones
Senior Master
Obviously if you have the opportunity, you should definitely run away. Hopefully people don't think I'm advocating fighting someone with a knife when you can get away. Clearly you don't always have the opportunity to run away, so you gotta do what you gotta do. If I needed to do a quick leg lock that would put the opponent on their back (possibly have their head hit the concrete and stun them) and give me time to pull a leg lock, I'd do something like this;
Quick level change, fast takedown, fast leg lock. It's one of my favorite takedowns.
And yes, I've done that move on concrete before.
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I like that without a knife.....but with a knife the guy on the right has an opening to stab you in the neck, face, or chest at the start of the roll.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
If I grant that he can pull off a stab while I'm beginning a roll, that only happens if he knows exactly what I'm doing before I actually do it. It's like one of those arguments where people say they'll front kick the guy in the face at the start of a DLT.
I find that incredibly unlikely.
CB Jones
Senior Master
I dunno.
At the 20 second mark at the beginning of the roll you see the guy in yellow able to press hard on the guys chest area before being taken dowm. With a knife that might be game over.
Again though I do like it for a regular fight....just seems very risky with a knife
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well, everything is more risky when a knife is involved. However, the Imanari Roll appears a lot less risky than what the Krav guys were doing.
Everything Tony says here.
I donāt like the set-ups for them, but as tools of opportunity, Iāll take them. Probably more likely to come into play if Iām blind-sided or injured, or they have grappling skills, too. If I have to use one, Iāll be looking to do damage.
As for legal risk I doubt thereās more criminal risk in them than any other injurious technique. Might be more civil risk.
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