The US/Cuba relationship

[Andrew Green]

I don't think the Cuban people are evil at all. It's their government that I have issue with. Communism doesn't work. It's been proven over and over again.

I don't know, had the USSR come out on top would we be saying the same thing about Capitalism? Actually a good chunk of the world seems to feel capitalism is evil.

Military dictatorships are where the problem lies. If they became a democratic but communist country would they still be evil?

 

[Bigshadow]

I don't know, had the USSR come out on top would we be saying the same thing about Capitalism? Actually a good chunk of the world seems to feel capitalism is evil.

Military dictatorships are where the problem lies. If they became a democratic but communist country would they still be evil?

Woooaa there... Wait a minute...

Capitalism
Democracy
Communism

Guess which one of these is not a political idealogy or doctrine... :erg:

 

[Andrew Green]

All depends on how you look at it.

There is nothing to say that a communist gov't could not be elected through a democratic process.

Just as there is nothing preventing a dictatorship governed country from becoming capitalist.

What Marx wrote about was not a military dictatorship.

 

[jdinca]

I don't know, had the USSR come out on top would we be saying the same thing about Capitalism? Actually a good chunk of the world seems to feel capitalism is evil.

Military dictatorships are where the problem lies. If they became a democratic but communist country would they still be evil?

Do you know of a communist country that wasn't a dictatorship? Where the communist party didn't hold all of the power?

I think communist and democracy are mutually exclusive terms. They may start out that way but I've yet to see an example where it did not end up as a military style dictatorship.

 

[Andrew Green]

Do you know of a communist country that wasn't a dictatorship? Where the communist party didn't hold all of the power?

I think communist and democracy are mutually exclusive terms. They may start out that way but I've yet to see an example where it did not end up as a military style dictatorship.

Given the current state of the world I think it would be very difficult for one to get going. But, that does not mean it is impossible, there is nothing baout communism that prevents it. Maybe in another 200 years Communism will work great. Kind of hard to say.

But I'm quite certain Democracy & Capitalism would not have worked back in the middle ages, yet today it does.

As the world changes so does its economic and governing structures.

 

[Bigshadow]

All depends on how you look at it.

There is nothing to say that a communist gov't could not be elected through a democratic process.

Just as there is nothing preventing a dictatorship governed country from becoming capitalist.

What Marx wrote about was not a military dictatorship.

True but capitalism, although generally tied in with a political system, it is not a political system on it's own. That was all I was getting at. It seemed as though the post was worded in a way that it was comparing capitalism with communism rather than democracy vs communism.

 

[jdinca]

Given the current state of the world I think it would be very difficult for one to get going. But, that does not mean it is impossible, there is nothing baout communism that prevents it. Maybe in another 200 years Communism will work great. Kind of hard to say.

But I'm quite certain Democracy & Capitalism would not have worked back in the middle ages, yet today it does.

As the world changes so does its economic and governing structures.

Nothing there I can argue with.

 

[Makalakumu]

One of the things that I try to keep in mind is to NOT get to attached to capitalism. As Andrew Green said, "as the world changes so does its economic and governing structures." It is entirely possible that in the future, capitalism will not be in our bests interests. As global competition for resources increases, we will have to become much more conservation minded...and thus far capitalism and conservation have not proven to mix well.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yes, well, what you define as practicality is certainly a function of your perspective, isn't it? Looks like squatting to me. If you believe that holding them accountable for an agreement signed more than 100 years ago by a Cuban government installed by Americans is justifiable, then by all means, call me disingenuous.

I don't think you're disingenuous.....just misinformed. I think you've merely fallen victim to a new fad.....Castro worship.

And, what precisely is the nature of that threat? I'm not seeing it....Ahhhh, the communist label. Yes, they sure are scary, those communists. Seems to me like more of the "evil Communist" war cry. There's a difference between supporting Castro and supporting Cubans to be Cubans however they choose to do be Cuban. Why the continuous intervention and need for control over other's lives? I simply do not see how American safety is jeopardized by letting Cuba be Cuba.

Well, with some historical information, it should be clear the threat that Castro has and currently does present to the US. From Peru to Ethiopa, Cuban communist troops have assisted other left-wing dictator's in gaining and maintaining power. Clear evidence exists of long term support, training and funding of communists Guerilla's in south America and elsewhere. Most specifically FARC in Colombia and the Shining Path guerilla's in Peru.

That you don't think this is a 'threat' is clearly an indication of how you've swallowed the new and quite popular hobby of Castro worship among many of the trendy left today. It's merely an example of monkey-see, monkey-do, among many who see celebrities and left-wing 'intellectuals' fawning all over Castro and everything communist Cuba. Even that mass-murderer Che Guevara has gotten an image change to some sort of hero for the left. It's truly disgusting.

Perhaps you are ignorant of the fact that Castro has incarcerated large numbers of his population for such 'heinous crimes' against the state as possession of banned books. Many librariarans, notorious criminals to be sure, have found themselves in Castro's Gulags. Please, just because it's trendy to support Castro now days, does mean we have to abandon any historical perspective in the face of bizarre hero worship.

Again, lets review some contemporary crimes of Castro (ignoring some of the older stuff).

He implemented nation wide mandatory testing for HIV. Commendable? Not so fast. Anyone found HIV positive is incarcerated. This shouldn't surprise anyone, however, as Castro has a long history of incarcerating homosexuals and other 'undersireables'. How amazing is it that many who endorse homosexual marriage in the US....also worship a man who has condemned homosexuality as a crime against the state.

Cuban military personnel continue to show up around the world training, arming and funding the forces of leftist dictators and communist guerilla groups alike.

Most scholars who have studied the issue, agree that the numbers of people murdered in the political killings by Castro during his reign hovers around 75,000 people.

Some groups with leftist tendencies, however, take a more reasonable and sober view of Castro, seeing him for the massive human rights crimes he's committed and continues to commit.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5279
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

Cuban authorities continue to treat as criminal offenses nonviolent activities such as meeting to discuss the economy or elections, writing letters to the government, reporting on political or economic developments, speaking to international reporters, or advocating the release of political prisoners.

Castro continues to maintain ties to several state sponsors of terrorism in Latin America. Colombia's two largest terrorist organizations, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) and the National Liberation Army (ELN), both maintain a permanent presence on the island.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18363

The shameless worship of tyrants, simply because they give lip-service to leftist ideals, is disgusting.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.trial-ch.org/trialwatch/profiles/en/legalprocedures/p425.html

 

[sgtmac_46]

One of the things that I try to keep in mind is to NOT get to attached to capitalism. As Andrew Green said, "as the world changes so does its economic and governing structures." It is entirely possible that in the future, capitalism will not be in our bests interests. As global competition for resources increases, we will have to become much more conservation minded...and thus far capitalism and conservation have not proven to mix well.

Heh Heh. I think there's more honesty in this post than you realize. It sheds a little light on the REAL motives behind the doom-and-gloom prognostications. If we can't foment revolution through class-warfare appeals, we'll SCARE people in to revolution by telling them the world is going to end, right? It's actually pretty creative, I have to admit.

Communists didn't disappear, they just changed their names and tactics.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Teachers have been doing it for YEARS. I remember thinking the world was going to be nothing but bare rock and all fish would be dead by acid rain due to all the movies my teachers used to show in science class (yes reel to reel movies).

 

[sgtmac_46]

I don't know, had the USSR come out on top would we be saying the same thing about Capitalism? Actually a good chunk of the world seems to feel capitalism is evil.

Military dictatorships are where the problem lies. If they became a democratic but communist country would they still be evil?

If the USSR had come out on top? Yeah, and if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their butts when they hop. That's the point, partner, in the REAL world (not some leftist fantasy world) the USSR failed. It failed because it was a fatally flawed system.

The sooner we realize that, and leave the fantasy stuff to hollywood celebrities the better off we'll all be. In the mean time, however, many leftists still fantasize about 'What if?'.

That's likely the REAL source for all the Castro worship. It's a throw-back to the USSR worshipping days. Castro's the last great hope for their fantasies of 'Benevolent Communist Dictatorships', and the 'dream' dies with him.

 

[Makalakumu]

Heh Heh. I think there's more honesty in this post than you realize. It sheds a little light on the REAL motives behind the doom-and-gloom prognostications. If we can't foment revolution through class-warfare appeals, we'll SCARE people in to revolution by telling them the world is going to end, right? It's actually pretty creative, I have to admit.

Communists didn't disappear, they just changed their names and tactics.

Somehow "Reduce/Reuse/Recycle" has been transformed in some people's worlds to mean, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." That, actually, could make an interesting thread...is conservation communistic? I'd love to see that spin round a few times...

 

[sgtmac_46]

Somehow "Reduce/Reuse/Recycle" has been transformed in some people's worlds to mean, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." That, actually, could make an interesting thread...is conservation communistic? I'd love to see that spin round a few times...

Yes, but it wasn't ME who transformed those things. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle isn't anathema to capitalism. The statement that captialism may have to yield to those things, however, is an attempt to create a doom and gloom scenario where socialism MUST win for us to survive.

Conservation isn't communistic, but the issue has moved FAR beyond conservation, in to some sort Quasi-religious, pseudo-scientific, environmental belief system. Heck, even the terminology has become religious. 'Mother Earth' 'Gaia'.

Would be an interesting thread discussion. Start one, and i'll follow you in.

 

[celtic_crippler]

At this point, I'd have to ask if anyone follows the Showtime series by Penn and Teller, "Bull-****"? They dispell a lot of comon myths, like this one for instance.


**post edited to comply with MT profanity policy**-Flatlander

 

[Flatlander]

I don't really know where the red herring of the widespread "Castro worship" was born. Personally, I'm more concerned with things like respecting national sovereignty. However, it seems as though the Jeet Kune Do approach to foreign policy knows no boundary.

If you look into the dark long enough, the boogeyman will appear.

From Peru to Ethiopa, Cuban communist troops have assisted other left-wing dictator's in gaining and maintaining power. Clear evidence exists of long term support, training and funding of communists Guerilla's in south America and elsewhere. Most specifically FARC in Colombia and the Shining Path guerilla's in Peru.

Translate this, if you would, into how American National Security is threatened.

That you don't think this is a 'threat' is clearly an indication of how you've swallowed the new and quite popular hobby of Castro worship among many of the trendy left today. It's merely an example of monkey-see, monkey-do, among many who see celebrities and left-wing 'intellectuals' fawning all over Castro and everything communist Cuba.

No, that I don't see this as a threat is indicative of my reliance on fact and my own judgement to formulate my own opinions. From here, I do not recognize imminent danger. If you're seeing it though, by all means, show me the way. Should you choose to further insult my intelligence with your condescending diatribe, I'll let you argue with yourself. Curiously, that may in fact be your preference.

This shouldn't surprise anyone, however, as Castro has a long history of incarcerating homosexuals and other 'undersireables'.

I find this surprising. On a recent visit, I saw a few males that appeared to me to be quite homosexual, seemingly disinterested in hiding their flamboyance, while performing in a government owned resort, under the eye of government management. So, perhaps Castro's evolving in that respect....

 

[sgtmac_46]

I don't really know where the red herring of the widespread "Castro worship" was born. Personally, I'm more concerned with things like respecting national sovereignty. However, it seems as though the Jeet Kune Do approach to foreign policy knows no boundary.

It's not a red-herring, it is, in fact, the source of this entire discussion. It's a bizarre sort of morality that says that it's ok to respect the 'national sovereignty' of violent and oppressive dictatorships. It's a lot like saying a man has a right to beat his wife and kids all he wants, so long as it's in his own house (the very definition of Sovereignty). Is that the kind of logic you're using?

If you look into the dark long enough, the boogeyman will appear.

Talk about red-herrings. If you pretend a threat doesn't exist, it doesn't, right? The only problem is that Castro's history is very clearly illuminitated. It's not in the dark. So there really is no excuse for ignorance about Castro and his crimes.

Translate this, if you would, into how American National Security is threatened.

If you aren't aware of how overt technical and material support for terrorist organizations threatens national security, than i'm afraid that I can't make it any simpler for you.

No, that I don't see this as a threat is indicative of my reliance on fact and my own judgement to formulate my own opinions. From here, I do not recognize imminent danger. If you're seeing it though, by all means, show me the way. Should you choose to further insult my intelligence with your condescending diatribe, I'll let you argue with yourself. Curiously, that may in fact be your preference.

'Fact' has little to do with your opinions on this matter, as the source of your 'facts' is nothing more than the current trendy nature of Castro worship in the US, Canada and Europe. But i'm sure everyone who falls prey to trendy fashions sees themselves as 'original thinkers'.

You'll excuse me if I don't automatically buy the notion that everyone spontaneously decided one day that Castro was a 'great guy' (if you don't count the executions, political prisoners, repressive laws and support of terrorism), simply because he is, in fact, a great guy.

I still don't understand the trendiness of the whole thing, though. I just don't see how the defense and worship of a violent and repressive despot in anyway makes someone appear MORE progressive. Maybe it's somehow based on the perceived open-mindedness of the ability to be understand and defend of the indefensible. A bizarre argument, but that could be. I really couldn't say.

I find this surprising. On a recent visit, I saw a few males that appeared to me to be quite homosexual, seemingly disinterested in hiding their flamboyance, while performing in a government owned resort, under the eye of government management. So, perhaps Castro's evolving in that respect....

Evolving from imprisoning homosexuals, or merely putting on a show for visiting representives of other nations to avoid continued stigma from the bad press he received from incarcerating homosexuals and HIV victims? I'd let you be the judge, but it's obvious you're more persuaded by the sad theatrics of an aging despot.

What is truly sad is that these kind of staged shows are nothing new to communist dictators. In fact, staging shows for visiting sympatheticos is as old a communist tradition as death squads and reeducation. What is MORE sad is that self-described progressive seems to always fall for the same lies from the worst killers.

Perhaps they simply want to believe so badly, that they are willing to rationalize the sound of the rifles from the firing squads two blocks over, as simply people celebrating the 'joy of communism' by shooting off fireworks. It doesn't matter what the reality is, so long as the fantasy of the benevolent communist dictor lives on.

"A lie told often enough, becomes truth" Vladimir Lenin


I will say this about Cuba, though, I don't support the continued embargo against Cuba. I believe we should bury Cuba in US dollars and tourism. Engagement should be our new policy. We should flood Cuba with money as soon as it becomes clear that old Codger is on his death bed. Cuba should be reintroduced to capitalism in a big way. Communism in Cuba will die with Castro.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I am by no means a homosexual, but I would think that a democratic type government would tend to tolerate such behavior more so than a Communist gov't.

Castro is no threat. We are simply waiting for him to die. He has harmed his country more than anything else. Prior to communism, he country earned a lot of money by being a major resort. Castro stopped this, and thereby stopped the influx of funds and thereby stopped money entering into the hands of his countrymen.

There is undisputed evidence that Cuba was more econimcally productive before Castro than after.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I am by no means a homosexual, but I would think that a democratic type government would tend to tolerate such behavior more so than a Communist gov't.

Castro is no threat. We are simply waiting for him to die. He has harmed his country more than anything else. Prior to communism, he country earned a lot of money by being a major resort. Castro stopped this, and thereby stopped the influx of funds and thereby stopped money entering into the hands of his countrymen.

There is undisputed evidence that Cuba was more econimcally productive before Castro than after.

All true. However, there is clear evidence that Castro has used Cuban military advisers and his economy to support and train terrorist organizations throughout the world, to include but not limited to the PLO, the IRA, MRTA and Shining Path in Peru, FARC, M-19 and ELN in Colombia, the former Sandanistas, Tupumaros in Uruguay, as well Guatemalan and Salvadoran guerilla's. In addition, Castro supported the Black Panthers and Puerto Rican Macheteros.

http://www.futurodecuba.org/Castro'sTerroristConnection.htm

If that's not a 'threat' I don't know what is.

Of course, Castro denies still being in the revolution and terrorism export business. His historical honesty, however, is questionable at best. It is worth keeping Guantanamo open, for the moment to keep him close by.