Declaration of War... Against An Organization

[Twin Fist]

This should be left to an international panel, not the US.

yeah, cuz other countries are just as determined to erradicate the threat of radical islam as we are...........oh wait, thats right, they are not. In fact, most nations not only deny the threat, they actively do everything they can to appease the terrorists, hoping that will buy them some safety

or they just oppose the US out of routine, without even considering what it is we are actually doing................

 

[Empty Hands]

BOLD measures, like Bush has done, "seek them out and kill them all" measures have essentially broken AQ.

AQ may be broken yes, but they are one small organization in a sea of radicalism. Anger against America is at an all time high in the Muslim world, and it is in fact easier to recruit terrorists now, not harder. The numbers on the general Muslim population have also shifted. More Muslims are now willing to say they directly or indirectly support the aims of terrorist organizations than before the war.

The typical liberal mantra "let's just be nice to them and they will forget alll about us" simply does not work.

Strawman.

I dont think it has EVER worked, but it damned sure doesnt work against radical islam.

I would urge you to read up on the history of the USSR/Afghan war and get back to me. Harsh measures do not cow populations, unless perhaps you are willing to commit genocide.

 

[Empty Hands]

The problem I have Suk is that the people complaining, can NEVER give you anything specific to complain about

Then you are not listening. Plenty of people have been complaining about these very specific issues.

The writ of habeas corpus has been suspended at the discretion of the federal government. This has been applied to at least one American citizen to date, although he did get his day in court - years later. Certainly you haven't forgotten all the "material witnesses" kept in custody without recourse to a lawyer or the courts for several years after 9/11?

The executive branch has taken upon itself the authority to initiate wiretapping surveillance absent statutory legislative oversight. Granted, that oversight was a rubberstamp to begin with, but now even that fig leaf has been disposed with. The annoying thing is that most of us wouldn't even know if our rights had been violated in these cases.

The ability to travel by air has been summarily curtailed for more than a million people at this time. Many more people not on this list have also been effectively denied the ability to travel freely due to having a name in common with someone on this list. The creation and enforcement of this list has no statutory or constitutional authority, the mechanisms of being added are unknown, the identities of those on the list are unknown, and there is no oversight or appeal procedures for being added to or taken off of the list.

There have also been more mundane problems with the operation of government itself, such as a lack of enforcement at the Civil Rights division of the Department of Justice.

 

[Empty Hands]

...I begin to wonder when thousands of pages of documents spelling out the Patriot Act and Homeland Security are trotted out a mere handful of hours after the event. The "new way" popped up kinda quick...or maybe it was the Old Way, something people have seen and governments have done before.

The FBI, CIA and other agencies had a standing "wish list" of powers they had been lobbying for for some time under previous administrations. Obviously, 9/11 represented an excellent way for those agencies to get powers they had always wanted without a recalcitrant government and populace standing in their way. That is why that documentation was standing ready.

 

[Twin Fist]

The writ of habeas corpus has been suspended at the discretion of the federal government.

for foreign terrorists and ONE american who was, guess what? working with foreign terrorists. Sorry, it just doesnt get me excited.

The executive branch has taken upon itself the authority to initiate wiretapping surveillance absent statutory legislative oversight.

of foreign terrorists and the people inside this country who are supporting them. That doenst ruffle my panties either. Sorry.

Do you not get that we are at WAR?

The ability to travel by air has been summarily curtailed for more than a million people at this time. Many more people not on this list have also been effectively denied the ability to travel freely due to having a name in common with someone on this list. The creation and enforcement of this list has no statutory or constitutional authority, the mechanisms of being added are unknown, the identities of those on the list are unknown, and there is no oversight or appeal procedures for being added to or taken off of the list.

they can still drive

they havnt lost the so called 'right" to travel, they just cant get on planes, since planes are now potential weapons, it makes sense to limit who has access to those weapons.

You are not winning me over buddy.

 

[Sukerkin]

Easy, gentlemen, easy.

I have to say, against my expectations of how this thread was going to unfold, there are good points coming from both sides of the division of opinion.

Don't wreck it by sniping at each other, please.

It might not be much of a gauge in the grand scheme of things but both of you (EH and TF) know that tho' we have not seen eye-to-eye on some issues over the past few months, we can still debate things to a conclusion. That conclusion may be that we cannot agree but it still means that the matters at hand get discussed rather than proselytised.

I can see a certain amount of validity in both sides here; the question becomes which has the more 'weight'?

 

[Empty Hands]

Sorry, it just doesnt get me excited.

That doenst ruffle my panties either. Sorry.

You are not winning me over buddy.

Well, I didn't really expect any differently. I was pointing out specific examples however, since you claim there weren't any. Think about this moment though when a future administration uses the powers garnered to the executive by the Bush administration to do things that DO ruffle your panties.

As for these powers only being used against "terrorists", since there is no oversight, you only have the government's word for that. I'm not much of one for uncritically trusting the word of the government. That is what a system of checks and balances is for, to account for human deficiencies, and these new powers have no checks and balances.

You are not winning me over buddy.

I'm not your buddy, pal!

Do you not get that we are at WAR?

Well, that doesn't ruffle MY panties. Being at war is no excuse to dismantle the essence of the American experiment. Indeed, preserving the soul of our country as a bastion of liberty becomes even more important during war. I am not such a coward that a bunch of filthy Saudis living in caves in Pakistan is going to make me give up on what America is.

they havnt lost the so called 'right" to travel, they just cant get on planes, since planes are now potential weapons, it makes sense to limit who has access to those weapons.

Oddly enough, Osama bin Laden is not on the list.

In any case, the whole thing wouldn't be so much of a problem if it had any transparency or appeal procedures to it. As it is, the list stands as entirely capricious, which is a big problem. What will you say when President Obama puts all you angry white conservative men on the list as a "militia threat"? Still going to be consoled that you can still drive? What happens when the "Highway List" gets implemented along with checkpoints? Still happy that you will be able to walk at will?

The government isn't going to give up these nifty powers that the American people have allowed to go to it.

 

[Empty Hands]

Don't wreck it by sniping at each other, please.

I haven't seen any sort of that thing so far in this thread. If I have come across that way I apologize, but I think both TF and myself are being pretty level. YMMV.

 

[Twin Fist]

The government isn't going to give up these nifty powers that the American people have allowed to go to it.

They did after the Civil War
They did after WW2.

No reason to think they wont again

I am not such a coward that a bunch of filthy Saudis living in caves in Pakistan is going to make me give up on what America is.

Only the living have the option of debating what the nature of the American Experiment really IS. So first and foremost, we have to make sure Americans are SAFE. And for the love of God please dont trot out the old Ben Franklin quote............

you only have the government's word for that. I'm not much of one for uncritically trusting the word of the government.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have no reason to think they are lying other than that it is the government. It seems I was right, it isnt about what IS so much as what "might be", "might happen" or "could be done"

 

[Marginal]

There is a word for not fighting when the bad guys want to kill you: Suicide.

I think Congress should get around to Musk's recommendations when he gets around to enforcing suponeas.

 

[Empty Hands]

They did after the Civil War
They did after WW2.

No reason to think they wont again

The executive has been steadily accumulating power to itself for the past nearly 70 years now. Actions by the government now would have been unthinkable not all that long ago. This long term trend IS worrying, and Bush is the apotheosis of that accumulation.

And for the love of God please dont trot out the old Ben Franklin quote............

Perhaps Patrick Henry instead? Complete safety is an impossibility, and trying to reach it will turn any society into a police state. That just isn't worth it. I'm willing to take a one in a billion shot of being killed by terrorists over the one in one shot of dealing with what we've become trying to fight them.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have no reason to think they are lying other than that it is the government. It seems I was right, it isnt about what IS so much as what "might be", "might happen" or "could be done"

Come now, I don't think you really believe that. Otherwise, why demand accountability or transparency at all? If someone has the power of life and death over you by their decisions, it only makes sense to make sure they are using it properly. "You don't know they're not!" is not a very rational objection.

Also, I gave you plenty of "is."

 

[Twin Fist]

"You don't know they're not!" is not a very rational objection.

Also, I gave you plenty of "is."

You gave 3 "is", none of them alarmed me

also, "it could be abused" is not a rational alarm, to me at least.I concentrate on what IS, not what "could be"

but it's all good, i disagree, but i gotta say, you put up a polite, well spoken debate!

 

[Big Don]

Oddly enough, Osama bin Laden is not on the list.

How would you know? The list is classified...

 

[Big Don]

YMMV.

Off topic: YMMV?
Translation please? Yugo Modern Motor Vehicles? Young Men, Mostly Vocal?
Whats that mean?

 

[Twin Fist]

your milage may vary

 

[Empty Hands]

How would you know? The list is classified...

I wouldn't say classified so much as buried under layers of non-cooperative bureaucracy. As far as I am aware, the no fly list is not truly classified.

As for ObL, I read that before, but cannot find any reputable confirmation now. World Net Daily said so in 2004, but I wouldn't trust them.

 

[Nolerama]

The problem I have Suk is that the people complaining, can NEVER give you anything specific to complain about

it is all "maybe" "could be" "might be"

Nothing has actually been lost, but the complaining goes on and on, and oddly enough, the same ones complaining? just so happen to be the same people (by and large, not all of course) that say "bush was selected not elected" or "Bush stole the elections in 2000 and 2004"

this tells me they are objecting NOT because of what is happening, but rather who is in charge.

and I will NEVER respect partisan thinking

This is The Study. Not TF's personal philosophy to shout people down and still ignore their point of view. Chill out, pal. This is supposed to be healthy, friendly, and non judgmental.

Besides that, I'll toe over this line and say this about your quoted statement:

"It's like the pot calling the kettle black."

We're talking about declaring war on organizations, and the ethics/legality behind that. Personally, I think it's okay to launch a image/PR campaign against a perceived "evil" organization/country by a government (Cold War), but not okay to wage a military war and spend American lives in the pursuit of a few people's perception of what's right and wrong (to their pockets in some cases).

Bush is out this year. So who cares anymore? Another politico will get in office and we can complain about him all over again.

The whole "I'll never respect partisan thinking" thing... Let's just say that although I like to debate you, I don't like seeing you disrespecting yourself.

This is positive criticism.

 

[jkembry]

Somewhat off the topic:

For me this has been a fruitful debate. By that I mean that it is really cool to be able to see what others think and why and not take things personally. And on the opposite side to be able to express myself in a thoughtful manner. Add to that the opinions here helped me to open my mind to the way others see things whether I agree or not...it just makes it cool.

Thanks for the lively debate.

 

[Twin Fist]

Nolerama,
I am highly offended.

seriously.