The Truth About Islam

[michaeledward]

Read aloud...to build faith and belief?

Not so. But I have heard this in regards to prayer. In other words, you do not pray without speaking.

Romans 10:14-18
14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ. 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

Strange that an Athiest would be familiar with this scripture, eh?

 

[MisterMike]

So you think it means reading aloud to yourself? I kind of took it to mean from a preacher. But yes, a pretty deep insight from an Athiest

 

[michaeledward]

I, too, took it to mean a preacher speaking the words from scripture.

I take this teaching of the bible to mean that the words must be spoken. However, I don't know that this passage, or any of the others related to 'Hearing', teach that the spoken word must be from another, but certainly there is a difference between SPEAKING and HEARING.

Anyhow ... I believe a basic tenet of Islam is that the verses of the Quran are also supposed to be spoken. I am open for correction if this is incorrect.

 

[loki09789]

ummmm...I mean "today", if you want to go down the "well your religon did it a few hundred years ago so dont lecture me about what mines doing today" path well I dont know where to go from there.

The foundational religious problem in Ireland/N.Ireland was the difference between Protestant and Catholic Christians. It is current events and there are 'Christian sects' now that abuse the bible for violence (Branch Dividian ring a bell?). There are Christian fundamentallists who justify murdering doctors over abortion because of religion. Mid-East orthodox christian factions are just as prone to extremist tendencies as Muslims are. All current events.

 

[loki09789]

Double posted.

 

[loki09789]

Just as the Christian world has those individuals who either for personal, financial, or presumes spiritual gain will do muder, destruction and other harm, so does Islam.

Christian intollerance is at par with Islamic intollerence.
Both religions share a common root, are good moral guidelines for living ones life, and are positive directions. Unfortunately a small portion of those claiming to follow them do harm.

Well said Bob, but the common root you speak of is more substantial than just good morals. What Christians know as the Old testament, Jews know as the Torah is what scholars call the Pentuegent (sp?) and is also included in the Koran as part of the sacred text. Muslims, scholarly/conservative/educated, reasonable ones at least learn about Abram/Abraham, Moses, Samuel.... and even recognized Jesus as a great profit - though not the Messianic figure of Christanity.

As far as Jihad.... Within the Islamic faith (as explained to me by my theological professor at college and a muslim co worker from years back) Jihad is generally taught as a personal mission against an injustice NOT a license for violence. A personal Jihad is like saying "I will not stand for starvation/abuse/intolerance/...." and then acting on it. Christians would call this a mission of charity or community service or "faith in works." I am not up on my Jewish Mitzvah stuff, but if I remember correctly part of the right of passage for a boy or girl into adulthood is to understand the responsibility of acting on principle.

As outsiders, the perception of Jihad as a license for violence is partly perpetuated because of fundamental/extremist muslims who are reading into Jihad and using for their own destructive goals and our lack of real understanding of the religion. If you hear the work nigardly (sp?) and only associate the root with a derogatory term for Black people, you might be offended. Within literary circles the term "nigardly" is an archaic term for an evil or "black/dark (as in dark side of the force)/evil" thing to do. Understanding changes perception. The media doesn't educate, it perpetuates...I mean 'informs' us.

The general public in America associates the term Jihad with terrorists more than Muslim.

 

[Flatlander]

Islam in its suchness does not promote violence in any way, but there are places in the Q'uran which can be taken out of context, from what I've heard (never read the book), in conversation with many middle eastern muslim friends. My understanding is, there are fanatics who use this selective truth twisting in order to "brainwash" the most loyal and easily influenced. They are predators who use humans as pawns to further their political agendas. This is much easier for them to do over there, as the large majority of the population is very devout, which facilitates an easier twisting of the minds of the impressionable. These people feel the "need" to die for their cause, and actually believe it is the will of God. They are religiously trained according to the precepts chosen by their teachers, and do not get a representative education of the true meaning of Islam.

Therefore, it would be unfair to relate their actions to Islam at all. One could accomplish the same feat using any other religeon, I would imagine, but obviously for them, Islam is the way to go, as it is the predominant faith practiced, and offers the side benefit of us painting all muslims with the smae brush.

Good thread, excellent topic, and one I think we should all try to understand. These are simply my opinions, based upon numerous discussions with people who have immigrated to Canada for primarily political and safety reasons from Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran.

As a side note, I would like to offer that these folks have worked for me as their immediate supervisor. I have found them all to be hardworking, honest, devoted to their families, and generally honourable people. I have employed people educated in their homelands as doctors, scientists, engineers, journalists, etc., who would work for $5.00 per hour plus tips, that they may feed their families, provide for their children, and save a little to send back home. These are selfless qualities that I have rarely, if ever, found in a Canadian born citizen.

 

[heretic888]

Not so. But I have heard this in regards to prayer. In other words, you do not pray without speaking.

*chuckles* Then be sure to tell all those monks practicing contemplative prayer that they are doing it "wrong".

 

[MisterMike]

Not so. But I have heard this in regards to prayer. In other words, you do not pray without speaking.

*chuckles* Then be sure to tell all those monks practicing contemplative prayer that they are doing it "wrong".

Well I would if I thought all religions were the same..buuuuut I don't.

 

[heretic888]

Well I would if I thought all religions were the same..buuuuut I don't.

"All religions"?? I'm talking about Christianity, dude.

Never heard of Christian monastic traditions?? C'mahn....

 

[MisterMike]

"All religions"?? I'm talking about Christianity, dude.

Guess I missed that part, dude.

Never heard of Christian monastic traditions?? C'mahn....

Yea, 'cuz there's sooo many. They're spreading like McDonalds. Please point me to some and it's reference in the New Testament.

 

[heretic888]

Another topic. Another time. Laterz.

 

[OULobo]

Yea, 'cuz there's sooo many. They're spreading like McDonalds. Please point me to some and it's reference in the New Testament.

Wait, are you saying you've never heard of Christian monks traditions. There are a dozen Catholic ones alone.

 

[MisterMike]

Wait, are you saying you've never heard of Christian monks traditions. There are a dozen Catholic ones alone.

And they are where?

I've heard of them from 100's of years ago and I'm sure some exist today.

My understanding is that they meditate on God and this is OK as compared to meditating on "nothing."

 

[OULobo]

Wait, are you saying you've never heard of Christian monks traditions. There are a dozen Catholic ones alone.

And they are where?

I've heard of them from 100's of years ago and I'm sure some exist today.

My understanding is that they meditate on God and this is OK as compared to meditating on "nothing."

The Jesuits run about 10 different schools here in Cleveland alone and are constantly bringing more priests into the fold from missions run all over the world. The Marionists raise hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for the prayers and services they dedicate to the sick or dead. The Cappuccines, yes the coffee ones, still exist and practice in seclution in Italy. The list goes on and on, the Francescans, the Dominicans, the Benedictines, the Augustinians, the Carmelites. Most are still active in their communities and are recruiting. Many do meditate on religious subjects, but you are right, I don't think any meditate on "nothing", like a Zen practitioner might.

 

[rmcrobertson]

For Catholicism, try Ignatius Loyola's "Spiritual Exercises;" for Protestantism, Barbara Lewalski's work on the Puritan poets is a good place to start.

Personally, it looks to me as though Christianity and Islam share one unfortunate thing: they have within them writings that legitimate all sorts of violences.

The obvious point, too, is that there are as many Islams as there are Christianities. You're pretty safe with Sufis and the Ba'hai; you're pretty safe with the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers. You are not terribly safe with the Wahhabis, the Tridentines, the rabid let's-rebuild-the-Temple so the Messiah can come Zionists, and Pat Robertson's crowd.

And what all these safe, minority groups share is that they get laughed at a lot by the more-mainstream faithful--laughed at, for trying to live in the way they believe, laughed at for emphasizing non-violence, laughed at for putting their souls before money. Silly them.

 

[MisterMike]

The Jesuits run about 10 different schools here in Cleveland alone and are constantly bringing more priests into the fold from missions run all over the world. The Marionists raise hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for the prayers and services they dedicate to the sick or dead. The Cappuccines, yes the coffee ones, still exist and practice in seclution in Italy. The list goes on and on, the Francescans, the Dominicans, the Benedictines, the Augustinians, the Carmelites. Most are still active in their communities and are recruiting. Many do meditate on religious subjects, but you are right, I don't think any meditate on "nothing", like a Zen practitioner might.

Thank you OULobo. I guess the debate came out of differing definitions. I would call Meditative Prayer just meditation and Prayer is spoken. That was my approach - I'll try to be more wordy next time

 

[heretic888]

Many do meditate on religious subjects, but you are right, I don't think any meditate on "nothing", like a Zen practitioner might.

Nope, sorry.

In most (I'd say all) of the Christian contemplative prayer traditions, prayer is culminated in meditation on the "ineffable/indescribable" nature of God. It isn't very well-known because it is the very highest level of development in the practice, and is not something your first-year monks would be too good at.

"Verbal prayer", as you put it, is generally considered beginner's practice. Which is probably why it is so common among the Christian masses, and not the adepts.

Seriously, these guys (and gals) have been doing this stuff for centuries. It goes back to the days of Constantine, if not earlier. Guys like Meister Eckhart, Clement of Alexandria, Origen of Alexandria, Ignatius of Loyola, or Teresa of Avila, or John of the Cross would be good examples --- as would Dionysius Areopagite (probably the earliest canonical work of mysticism in the Catholic tradition).

As far as Islam goes, I have a personal affinity for Sufism. Good stuff.

Laterz.

 

[mantis]

A lot of misconceptions regarding Islam have been floating around. Please feel free to discuss what you think of this religion and give some good sources to we can all learn from each other. :asian:

upnorthkyosa

i just found this.. put it on another thread
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_islam.htm

 

[mantis]

I'll start with some questions...Can anyone explain to me the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite muslims? Why did the split occur? How come there is such animosity now? Is Al-qaeda composed of Sunni, Shi'ite or both? How about the Taliban?

The split happened at the time of the 3rd and 4th Khalif (Emperor, leader.. their names are Ali, and Othman)
The shiites had a political opinion that any leader has to be from the "house" meaning from the family of the prophet Muhammad, which is in favor of Ali (the prophet's cousin)
after several political conflicts they decided to withdraw from the general islamic nation, the Sunni's (Sunni = a follower of the "way" of the prophet: way= sunna)
Shiites belives changed over time, and they gave their "imams" (religious leaders) the rights that catholic priests gained from people in the west!
Shiites make about 60 million people around the world (most of them in Iran, and souther Iraq) whereas Sunnis make the rest of the 1.3 billion followers of the faith.
The groups you mentioned are 100% Sunni's. Shiites do not really believe in "jihad" unless they're told to do so by their "imams", whereas sunnis gave no leader any authority to decide for them, rather they only follow the teachings of the Qura'an (the Muslim holy book) and what was reported to be said by the prophet (called Hadith)