The True System

[tigdra]

Or he could be a dedicated successful student that has no grudges with the Tracy's

The truth will come out in time or never at all.

I personally don't care about "The True Original System" If I did then I wouldn't have studied kenpo I would have studied shaolin kung fu.

What I care about is that when I go to my lesson and I learn something worth learning, and when I teach, I teach something worth learning.

I'm just interested in learning somthing worth learning and not wasting my time

 

[Jeff Harvey]

I have only one thing to say. "purity exists only when pure knuckles meet pure flesh" - Ed Parker Sr.

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

According to who? Thomas Young, Adriano Emperado, and others have said that Mitose only taught "Naihanchi Shodan".
In fact, since Mitose only taught them one kata, Young went and learned the Kyokushinkai katas Bobby Lowe got from Mas Oyama in the 50's.

Thank you John.

I wondered when someone would start with the questions others don't want to ask.

Another question is "when"?

Another question is "For what purpose"?

Hahaha.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

Have the Tracys "forgotten", or changed things? Probably. We can't remember everything we experience in life. If you go to their website, you will see that they have included material from Chinese sources, things that they definitely did not learn from Mr. Parker. So obviously they did change things, as well as keep other things the same.

My suspicion is that what you suggest is not true. There are a lot of politics on martial arts, especially in kenpo. Could be that your source is wrapped up in something that he is angry about, and wants to plant some bad seeds. I wouldn't buy his story...

I agree with you pretty much.

I really don't think that the Tracy's forgot much according to the story I heard from those that were there. Since Jim and Al (sometimes Will) were the ones running Ed's studio, and they are the ones that took all the notes every night after their lessons, filmed the materials and wrote the manuals...

And when they left, they TOOK IT ALL with them, leaving no copies for Ed.

I won't go over what else I was told of back then.

And this is not to "upset" any one or to "burst any tiny bubbles" but to answer the original questions put up by the thread starter.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[curious1]

lets try this again

 

[curious1]

Could you describe the Octagon drill? It is possible that we do under a different name, but I have no idea.

Thanks,

Lamont

Basically, our octagon drills are to build leg strength, stances and, more importantly eight angles of the jumping patterns. For the more seasoned practitioners the escaping arts.


7 down 8 up

Ken Torres

 

[bdparsons]

I personally am quite sure that there are EPAK people who are really really good; as well as some who are really really lousy.

The same goes with Tracy people, and any other hybrid or variety of kenpo.

Truer words were never spoken.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[KenpoDave]

What if the tracys got the entire system but no longer teach it due to what ever may be.

Hmmm. Is there stuff in the system that was there when the Tracy's left that the Tracy's no longer teach?

Could be that they don't remember all the material, have changed somethings because they felt it wasn't usefull or it could be that they no longer feal that the masses are worthy of such information.

#1 - I doubt it. They wrote everything down, filmed it, and I know that Al Tracy has an excellent memory.
#2 - I doubt it. On one of the tapes, he goes so far as to point out a technique that is absolutely useless, but is left in the system for historical purposes. In other places, he mentions encouraging people to change (add) things for the better, provided that nothing is taken away.
#3 - Basing this off the tapes and manuals, I can see your point. However, that is just the curriculum. The real depth of material comes from taking lessons from Mr. Tracy or from instructors that can provide that depth. Question to Al Tracy at a seminar in 2000: "Why are there 5 variations to Front Bearhug in Orange Belt?" Answer: "Because I didn't want to write the other 81 down."

I only present this possibility because I have some insight on the subject and the possibility that one of these are true.

Which one.

I will keep my source a secret for obvious reasons, but I have been told by a very reliable person, on numerous occasions, that the tracys have forgotten some of the material and have filtered in some of their own.

I would love to know your source, for obvious reasons. I have trouble believing that material has been forgotten. I do know that material has been added.

I didn't believe it but I then also bought one of tracy's videos and was suprised to see how sloppy and incomplete his technique was. Not only that but Mr. Tracy admits, in this video, to changing some things.

What are you basing "incomplete" on? The current version of EPAKK? Which current version? Techniques compared to techniques with extensions? Or by incomplete, do you mean the technique was not finished, as in, the opponent was not incapacitated?

I would love to go into more detail but I think it is wise for me to keep it simple so not to expose myself and my sources.

Depends on your goal.

 

[Doc]

What “system” are we talking about here? Parker? Tracy? A little perspective is needed. Neither is a true “one way system.” Both have always been in a state of change, and regardless of school or lineage, what you get will always depend on the teacher. There are aspects to both lineages that contain methodologies that are not readily available to all in the same “system lineage.”

True system? What true system? Certainly William Chow didn’t have one. He had no set techniques, and others just took notes of what he was doing or wanted to teach. Even this changed over time, and with whom he was teaching. William Chow never wrote a system.

The same is true of Ed Parker. He switched around continuously finding his way and had at least 4 or 5 discernable distinctive shifts even in philosophy and methodology. None of them were “finished.” Everything was always in a state of change. This is one of the reasons he lost students. He was evolving, experimenting, and changing. Students wanted to learn one way and move on to rank.

No different than today. If you are with an instructor who is evolving, and you’re looking for rank, it can be frustrating. If you want rank you should study with someone who just teaches by the book, whatever that book is.

Al taught for Ed Parker and took a lot of notes. Parker took notes from Chow. None of these “notes’ were comparable because of the constant change. Al was caught in the transition from “Kenpo-Karate” brought from Hawaii, and the Chinese-Kenpo Parker was moving toward.

When Parker decided to make another major shift for reasons of his own, he broke away from the yudanshakai and organization he created to form a separate single entity lead organization to expand the business of kenpo. Al and Jim were left with the previous organization and continued to head up the Japanese based yudanshakai, while themselves beginning a Chinese-Kenpo era of their own. Ultimately they shifted lineage to the Mitose Line for reasons of their own. In the early days of departure, The Tracy’s were much more successful business-wise than Ed Parker. He often spoke of how much he learned from their business experience in deciding what and how he wanted to pursue proliferation.

It was Apple versus PC all over again. Parker was open source with his affiliate schools. They owned everything and looked to Parker for the “systems” of business and Kenpo, along with promotions, materials, and organizational association.

The Tracy’s were closed source in the beginning. Very successfully, they sold franchises for the then new “Tracy Kenpo,” and proliferated. They had a fiduciary relationship with the school owners teaching their system. In some instances they actually owned the schools and had employees all over the place.

Parker never actually owned more than two schools at anyone time. Additionally his fiduciary relationship with his schools in the early days was always “informal.” This allowed many to walk away and move on their own once they had learned enough Kenpo and the business from Parker.

But like the Tracy’s, Parker always remained cordial with the bulk of the defectors. Parker supported them, promoted them, and maintained as much of a business relationship as possible. They bought his patches, books, belts, promotion, seminars, and came to the I.K.C. In some instances, Parker even helped them write books.

But, let’s get back to the mythical system. Al was a smart guy, and knew what his own limitations were in the art. Whatever he wanted in the system that he didn’t have, he would pay a noted master to teach himself and his select people. I say selected because everyone didn’t get everything. Much like Parker, AL picked and chose who got what and when. To this day there are Tracy teachers who are light years away from other Tracy people of the same rank. No different than Parker’s people. Al was even smart enough to hire people for his fighting team in the early days, so they hit the ground running headed up by Joe Lewis. This also brought the Joe Lewis Fighting System to the Tracy’s, but I guarantee you, it is not integrated into all of Tracy kenpo, only where Al wants it and with whom.
Just like Parker’s commercial system, what you get in Tracy’s kenpo depends upon with whom you study, or studied with and when. Parker’s “System” went in multiple directions over the years, and so did the Tracy’s. Although they both used different methodologies, they both essentially did the same thing.

However, Parker chose to simplify a lot of material for commercial purposes because of the recommended structure of his affiliate schools. Parker used the Arthur Murray Dance Studio Business Plan that depended upon a few private lessons to ultimately sign, and integrate students into a massive group program. Al Tracy saw the value of private lessons and focused his schools on that method of selling their art.

So you see, no one has a true system. Neither Mitose nor Chow. All, including Parker and Al Tracy, have taught various evolutionary versions of their very diverse art(s) to various people at different points in time, and that continues to play out today. The “True System” concept is borrowed from Japanese Culture “way’' arts, and even they have their off-shoots and splinter groups throughout their history, all claiming the “pure system.” There is no such thing as a pure or true system. What is pure and true is what your teacher teaches you - today. Tomorrow it might be different.

Some suggest that because Tracy had more techniques, that it was more representative of older material, and that Parker dumbed it down for his “new” system. On one level that is true. On another Parker chose to philosophically address material with conceptual formulations of execution, while Al chose to memorialize each variation as a separate technique. Sam Ting, different stuff. In Parker’s commercial system if you began counting all of the prefixes, inserts, suffixes, additions, and alphabetical and mathematical re-arrangements possibilities, you have even more techniques than Tracy’s Kenpo. Parker chose to allow the student to make personal adjustments for purposes of self-defense. Al wanted to keep his available system more intact.


“What the Tracy's teach is Traditional Kenpo which is a simply a version of one of Ed Parker's (many) evolutions.”

I couldn’t have said it better. The efficacy of what you’re taught depends upon who teaches you, not what anyone chooses to call it.

This is not baseball. It’s a subjectively learned and taught art with as many variations as there are people who have learned its many diversions. Neither is better than the other, however some instructors truly are. Pick your poison and quitchabitchin.

 

[bdparsons]

The efficacy of what you’re taught depends upon who teaches you, not what anyone chooses to call it.

This has to be one of the most succinct statements I've heard concerning the martial arts. The who determines the how and the why. Thank you sir, for putting words to reality.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute