the system?

[jellyman]

Maybe we have different definitions of biomecanical manipulation. All I saw was absorption work.

The takedowns and armbars and the like seemed pretty biomechanical to me.

Absorption generally refers to taking strikes. No strikes in that clip, although there is one with that as well.

 

[arnisador]

Thanks Jerry and Murphy. I better understand your point now.

 

[Jerry]

Well-struck muscles contract involuntarily, relaxed as you may be.

Can you support this claim?

And I still fail to see the point of mob drills. Your goal is self-defense, right? Why stay and duke it out when you can get out of there?

Combatively? You generally don't duke it out if there's a better option. How are you going to learn the skills to survive moving through that crowd? It seems that getting into a crowd all duking it out in drill is a better way then most to learn how to survive being in a crowd duking it out.

Just want to make sure we have: Muscles contract involuntarily after being struck and decontract when the lactic acids have been "drained" from the muscle. This decontraction process occurs by itself, relaxing simply makes it easier to bear and makes sure you don't prolong the process unnecessarily. Then again, sometimes tensing your muscles allows you to prevent it from auto-contracting in the first place...

This is inconsistant with experieence doing something as basic as hitting a bag. Fatigue forces tense muscles to relax even though lactic acid is *building*

Then you defend as best as possible and move outwards, striking as the need arises, and then run.

And you practice that skill how?

 

[Loki]

Let me get something clear: Does Systema use mass-fighting situations as a drill to improve the aforementioned benefits (which can incidently be useful in a brawl situation), or does it use them as a preparation for a brawl situation that Systema considers likely?

As far as the whole "moving-with-the-blow" idea, I'll give it a shot.

From my experience, if you tense a muscle before it's struck, it doesn't hurt as much as if it's relaxed and struck. Do you tense your abs before receiving a blow? If not, there go your instestines.

As for the issue of running away, this brings me back to my first point. Obviously we train to defend ourselves in situations where we can't run away, but is a brawl one of those? As opposed to fighting one or several, brawls are, like jellyman said, indiscriminate. No one's after you specifically. Why not move out? This is what I mean in my first paragraph: does Systema see a brawl as a situation similar to being attacked with a knife, where you have to neutralize the situation and come out on top?

Breathing to make the pain go away: I know exactly what you mean. I find it helpful myself, though I'd try to focus on avoid getting hit in the first place rather than emphasize dealing with pain over avoiding it.

Jerry,
On the issue of muscle contraction: I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and try getting kicked to the quadriceps (hard) while contracting and while not contracting beforehand. I had my brother kick my leg while I contract the quads, then kick the other one (for a fresh start) while I didn't. Here are my findings:

Left quads (contracted):
Upon impact, there was some further contraction and some pain.

Right quads (uncontracted):
Upon impact, slightly less contraction than left quads and noticeably more pain.

As for the issue of fatigue and contraction, I honestly don't know. I'll look into it and get back to you.

I don't practice these skills. I practice others which can be applied to this situations.

Last note, the biomechanical manipulation. I watched the video again and couldn't for the life of me find any manipulation. Not a single armbar. I saw one takedown that didn't seem to be caused by sheer force, but then again, it didn't seem like the result of manipulation either. Maybe I missed something in chaos at the end?

 

[jellyman]

bloody hell, I posted the wrong url!

let's try that again

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/wrestling D.F. 1.wmv

I find it helpful myself, though I'd try to focus on avoid getting hit in the first place rather than emphasize dealing with pain over avoiding it.

The two skills are not mutually exclusive. We train to be proficcient in many things.

Regards tensing the stomache muscles - you'll be surprised, but it hurts more that way. With relaxed stomach, if you know the breathing method for getting hit (before you get winded) much less damage/pain.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Let me get something clear: Does Systema use mass-fighting situations as a drill to improve the aforementioned benefits (which can incidently be useful in a brawl situation), or does it use them as a preparation for a brawl situation that Systema considers likely?

Loki (is that your real first name) why does it have to be an either or scenario? There's no telling what the future will bring for each of us so why not train to make yourself as proficient in as many environments and situations as possible? There are a large number of benefits to training in mass attacks that carry over into any type of self defense, hence dissecting it doesn't do much good, just do the work. Not to mention that during a mass attack training seminar there are numerous drills that place 'you' against 4, 5, 6 or more people all of whom are focused solely on you. This of course has obvious training value.

Systema drills are designed to challenge and to help each student explore the possibilities of motion. One of my favorite drills is to stand on one leg as multiple attackers slash and stab with a knife. Sure, if this was real I would simply put my other foot down but this is training hence we make it as difficult as possible.

Lastly, many of the people that train in Systema are professionals and simply running away from a mass brawl isn't an option. Police officers, prison guards, etc. are the ones called in to deal with the situation. Take care and best of luck.

Mark J.

ps. As for being punched in the stomach will tensing or relaxing you will have to try it with an experienced Systema striker to appreciate it.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

duplicate

 

[Jerry]

Let me get something clear: Does Systema use mass-fighting situations as a drill to improve the aforementioned benefits (which can incidently be useful in a brawl situation), or does it use them as a preparation for a brawl situation that Systema considers likely?

For me, and in my experience: You may end up in a situation where there's a lot of opponents in a crowd. You should have skills to fight if you are forced to in that situation.

For example, I work sometimes as a mounted police officer. I've watched mass melee show up. On a 1800lb animal (and with others), this isn't much of a problem for the mounted unit (unless weapons come out), but we've more than once gone in to recover a tactical unit that just ended up encircled.

From my experience, if you tense a muscle before it's struck, it doesn't hurt as much as if it's relaxed and struck. Do you tense your abs before receiving a blow? If not, there go your instestines.

I know the experience you are discussing. The problem is that it's not as simple as either answer. I appriciate greatly that you are giving it a try, but what you should actually try is to find someone who does the other way (such as a Systema guy) and learn it directly. It doesn't take long to get the idea.

I'm not aware of any way I could describe what systema does in a manner that would let you repeat it and try it without feedback from someone already experienced with it.

Breathing to make the pain go away: I know exactly what you mean. I find it helpful myself, though I'd try to focus on avoid getting hit in the first place rather than emphasize dealing with pain over avoiding it.

Do you box?

I know you tried the "contracted/not contracted". Try this against light/medium hits (works well with gut shots). When the hit is about to come, contract your abdomen (lungs full or empty, doesn't matter, but don't exhale when you do). Now try the same thing but give a sharp exhale as you contract your abdomen (this should be how a boxing instructor trains you to take a body blow).

That's somewhat analogous. It's not that yuo take the pain better, it's that it hurts less. Yes, in this case, there's a contraction; but I'm acutally pointing at the advantage that breathing gives.

 

[Jerry]

Regards tensing the stomache muscles - you'll be surprised, but it hurts more that way. With relaxed stomach, if you know the breathing method for getting hit (before you get winded) much less damage/pain.

Yes and no. If I went to a boxer and just had them relax (not tense) when hit in the gut, it would hurt them more. There is more to what's being done than just relaxation (especially localized relaxation).

Among other things, if you relax the part that is hit, and not the rest of the chain, all the force will travel together until it hits the unrelaxed part and then the relaxed part will be smushed.

 

[jellyman]

Yeah, what happens to the gut on impact is hard to describe.

I just know I don't consciously tense the stomache.

 

[Murphy]

Thanks Jerry and Murphy. I better understand your point now.

Happy to help.