the system?

[NYCRonin]

ONE OF THE BETTER RECENT THREADS HERE!

I am enjoying reading this cyber-thread, alot. just wanted to mention that you all are sharing so well in the community of open hearted seeking of martial knowledge. Thats what Mr. Hubbard must have hoped for when MTalk was born.

Now, I take my drink and chair to the sidelines (for now) -- I wopuld like to see where the thread twists to.

Namaste!
RobG


OOOOPPPSSS! A short note done publickly - I have recieved a few requests for copies of videos produced by VV and others - and I wanna say - NO. Because the producers of the vids - well, deserve to get paid..IMHO. I dont do napster either. Looky here - yeah, ya might not have the bux to buy certain tapes, presently. Errrrr, I can only do so - because I got off my lazy *** and got a job.....stop feeling sorry fer yerself. My kids are in late teens and already are saving $$$ for their university. PLEASE...dont ask me to download vid content that costs about 30 bux ---- the ons who shared the vid with us, for a price - have kids to feed also. Respect their personal power to produce a vid and offer it -- respect...give em their propers. Ya wann have a vid --- hmmmmmmmm. Well, in NYC there is a recyling law. A 30 bux vid = what? How many empty bottles does one have to recycle to earn $30?
PUT DOWN THE FRICKIN GAMEBOY ---- and recycle the bottles and EARN the knowledge you seek.

When this old man was a child - I walked the streets to get firewood to start the coal furnace that kept my family warm at night. Dont tell me your too challenged by time to just collect bottles to fuel your fire! I have zero sympathy for you - if you dare say so.

EARN what you wish to learn!
You will be a better person for the effort --- trust in that.

I now leave and want to read more of the thread here -- I am sorry for a brief hijacking.

 

[Jerry]

Then why doesn't anyone do it in the videos? Obviously you're not supposed to inherently know, but it would obviously make for a much more impressive demonstration.

I'm not sure it would be a more impressive demonstration; other than the opponent flying much faster. You wouldn't generally be able to make out what had happened.

Download some videos, you'll see what I'm talking about.

You are seeing them at play... in an ongoing drill. Fights look different, but are short. I would suggest getting a few of the videos or (better) going down and playing with some systema guys to get a better idea.

Assuming the first combo ends the fight, you're right. But if it doesn't? Multiple attackers?

There are not "combos". My point is that once the swinging has started, you are not going to see the systema player keeo his hands at his sides (which is your worry). There's an ongoing fight until the fight is over, whether that's right away or after a bit.

Systema actually trains very havily in mass-attack. There are some arts with more sophistication at it (Bagua comes to mind), but their multiple attacker work is generally very well defines and very integrated into their basic fighting system.

The problem with most of the downloadable vids are:
- You are watching systema-v-systema.
- It's slowed down for safety and so that it can be viewed in a useful manner
- It's drill work.

 

[RachelK]

I just want to commend you all for answering Loki's questions, as I think you are doing a fine job, particularly Mark J. I am learning a lot from this thread, so a big thank-you to everyone.

I am a relative newcomer to Systema so I won't add to the topic at hand, except to agree with everyone else that it's easier to understand Systema when you can experience it. If that's not feasible, maybe you just have to say to yourself, "This stuff is a bit mysterious to me, but I will eventually have a chance to experience it and then I will understand it a lot better." I am sure that eventually a Systema seminar or instructor will arrive in your area, or maybe you will travel to a part of the world where Systema classes are held. If you truly desire to learn about Systema (as it seems from your posts), then you will find a way to train with an instructor, maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen someday, I assure you.

I've noticed with other teachers, in my MS courses, for example, on the first day of class, we often have an overview of everything we are going to learn in the coming semester. And usually one or two students ask the teacher to explain something that is in Chapter 9. And the teacher will reply, "Have patience, we'll get to it." The teacher is not asking the student to forget about learning the material in Chapter 9, but only to build a foundation for understanding first before trying to understand everything at once. For example, Mark's description of a basic Systema exercise is one idea for building this foundation of understanding. There are also some exercises on Paul Genge's Web site (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page6.html), and some excellent articles on the Systema UK Web site (http://www.systemauk.com/articles.htm). But some of these principles can be confusing to everyone when viewed in the abstract, yet so much easier to understand when there is a physical frame of reference. Why not get together with a friend, try some of the exercises, discuss them a bit to get each other's perspective, and then post about your experience? Although training with an instructor is probably the easiest way to learn Systema, you can practice on your own or with a friend, even if you have no previous experience, by using some of the articles, descriptions of exercises, videos, and even clips that are available on the Web. Then you can post questions on this forum that relate to your specific experiences, and knowledgeable people can reply with specific suggestions for you to try next time you practice those same exercises.

That's just one idea for learning about Systema when it's not possible to train with an instructor. I've suggested it because I know that other students without instructors are learning about Systema in this way, so maybe it could work for you, too.

As far as the military theme, the confusion is probably just due to semantics. To me, a martial art with a military theme is different than a military system. Computer programmers describe this distinction as "has-a" versus "is-a." For example, my apartment has a Western theme. There's a deer skull over the fireplace, a Navajo rug on the floor, and I've hung a pair of spurs, a whip, and a flat-brimmed hat on the wall for decoration. But if I were to visit a bunkhouse at a working cattle ranch and see the latter three items hanging on the wall, it would not be accurate to say the bunkhouse has a Western theme. I would not point to these items and say to the cowboy, "I like your decorations," as he'd probably laugh and say, "Those are not decorations, but the tools I need to do my job." As I mentioned, it's just semantics, and the word "theme" probably means something different to you than it does to me, since I do tend to go with the literal interpretation.

I can tell you about the pants, though, because when I started Systema training, I thought I'd never wear camos. I trained in sweatpants or yoga pants. But they are so baggy, the pants were actually impeding my movement. I suppose I might have worn leggings or exercise tights, but I feel those are just the opposite: too tight and restrictive. One day we needed to wear camos for our class photograph, and so I caved and bought a pair. After training in them, I realized that they actually work well for class: not too tight, not too loose. However, some students train in jeans, kung-fu pants, even dress slacks. There is no uniform, but it just so happens that the BDUs work well for Systema training. They don't have to be camoflauge, though, a lot of students just wear plain cargos. But I won't deny that the camoflauge is also a tribute to Systema's military background, and to our top instructors, who both have distinguished military careers.

If you find a friend with whom you can experiment with some of the basic Systema exercises, I hope you will return and post about it, as I think many of us enjoy reading about these experiences.

Best wishes,
Rachel

 

[Brad S.]

Systema actually trains very havily in mass-attack. There are some arts with more sophistication at it (Bagua comes to mind), but their multiple attacker work is generally very well defines and very integrated into their basic fighting system.

Having just been at a 2-day instensive on RMA Mass Attack work and having dabbled a bit in Bagua and other Chinese internal arts I am curious as to how they are more sophisticated when it comes to mass attacks, if I am reading the post correctly. (I was never exposed to this in those arts in the time I trained them).

Thanks.

 

[Jerry]

Having just been at a 2-day instensive on RMA Mass Attack work and having dabbled a bit in Bagua and other Chinese internal arts I am curious as to how they are more sophisticated when it comes to mass attacks, if I am reading the post correctly. (I was never exposed to this in those arts in the time I trained them).

"More preemptive" might be a more apt description.. though I'm not sure how much I could describe it in a post.

 

[Loki]

While I admit watching videos isn't the best way to learn how Systema works, like I said, it's the only way I've got. I don't consider a $30 DVD to at the top of my priority list, especially when I'm in the process of buying a car and saving up for academic studies, so I'm getting all the visual material I can off the net and, as for context, hope you guys can help me with that. You're right when you say you can't describe the moon in full detail with a view of a moon rock alone, but then again you don't have to be an astronomer to get a general idea of it. A few pictures and an encyclopedia entry are usually good enough.

I've seen videos of others, not only Vlad, and if I can be directed to videos of other practitioners, that'd be more than welcome. Videos of MT members would be especially appreciated.

As for mass attacks: How do you get comfortable with getting kicked? After a few well-placed kicks, yo're down for the count. I can understand getting comfortable as part of an absorption drill, attempting to get used to the pain, but as part of a one VS several fight? To what end? And attacks with 35-40 people are brawls. If your goal is self-defense, it's best to bob, weave and run out the door.

If I saw what I wanted to see, I wouldn't be asking you these questions. I'd have watched the videos and made my generalizations. I wouldn't search for more information or discuss what I know with others. So even if that's what you think, I think my actions give me the benefit of the doubt. And you if you think that because I'm far off the mark I'm not worth answering, then maybe you confuse my lack of knowledge for lack of willingness to pursue it, in which case it's you who's seeing what you want to see.
And as for the nose scratching, it always came after the guy was down.

Jellyman, I saw the video. Maybe we have different definitions of biomecanical manipulation. All I saw was absorption work.

Rachel, what you say about the military theme seems to answer your definition of a theme, since the camo pants don't seem to serve a practical purpose, but hey, if it's comfortable, that's what matters most. And if you're already using cargos, I guess there's no problem with a camo design.

If someone would be kind enough to make the effort to describe a Systema drill I could practice with a friend, I'd be most thankful. Experience is the best teacher after all.

 

[Jerry]

I can understand getting comfortable as part of an absorption drill, attempting to get used to the pain, but as part of a one VS several fight?

That would be a mistake on your part. The absorbtion drills are not about getting used to pain. When you move correctly, the hits don't hurt.

To what end? And attacks with 35-40 people are brawls. If your goal is self-defense, it's best to bob, weave and run out the door.

Bob-and-weave is less effective in a mas attack than you might think. You can accomplish more with bigger movements as the situation is far more chaotic. Bob and weave might move you right into a hit.

Rachel, what you say about the military theme seems to answer your definition of a theme, since the camo pants don't seem to serve a practical purpose, but hey, if it's comfortable, that's what matters most. And if you're already using cargos, I guess there's no problem with a camo design.

Cargo pants and BDUs are very different materials. I imagine BDUs are the norm as it's what millitary personel are generally wearing.

 

[Loki]

That would be a mistake on your part. The absorbtion drills are not about getting used to pain. When you move correctly, the hits don't hurt.

The bob-and-weave thing was a joke. I meant that in a brawl, you get the hell outta there.

 

[Jerry]

The bob-and-weave thing was a joke. I meant that in a brawl, you get the hell outta there.

Ahh. Sorry I missed it. Yes, I agree. Ideally: get out *before* the brawl erupts. I'm all about avoidance

 

[arnisador]

When you move correctly, the hits don't hurt.

This is a really strong statement. I have trouble accepting it.

 

[Jerry]

Grab a decent systema guy and do the drill. See if the hits hurt you. Ask if the hits hurt him. (though the hits hurting you question is basically to answer "are they hard hits"). The way that one typically learns to move is to change until it stops hurting. The pain tells you that you are doing it wrong.

I'm not sure what's all that strong about the statement. Perhaps you are reading more than I am saying?

 

[arnisador]

Maybe. The statement "the hits don't hurt" sounds like an Iron Shirt Chi Kung idea: When people strike you, you feel no pain. I understand you're speaking of moving and not just standing there taking a strike, but the context is a mob attack...sooner or later someone is going to land a punch on the jaw, and it's gonna hurt, it seems to me.

 

[Jerry]

Maybe. The statement "the hits don't hurt" sounds like an Iron Shirt Chi Kung idea: When people strike you, you feel no pain. I understand you're speaking of moving and not just standing there taking a strike, but the context is a mob attack...sooner or later someone is going to land a punch on the jaw, and it's gonna hurt, it seems to me.

I think I understand your confusion: we are in a different context.

When it was said
"I can understand getting comfortable as part of an absorption drill, attempting to get used to the pain"

I responded based on the absorption drill (you seem to have understood me as saying that no hits in a mass-fight would hurt). The strikes being traded in the drill should not hurt (assuming that you are absorbing correctly, of course the person striking is improving his ability to impart power, so it's something of an arms race). Actually, I suppose they should hut as that's the tool you use to improve your ability to take the hit (tryign to make them not hurt).

That said, the same attributes that teach you to take those hits and not hurt ideally apply in any fight (including a mass attack). So less hits should hurt and they should hurt less than if you did not; but I'd never dream of making a generalized "you won't get hurt" statement over an actual fight... particularly such a melee. It is indeed more than a little likely that someone will land something that hurts.

Is there a similarity to iron shirt stuff? I'm sure. Just as there are some similarities to why bronco riders don't get hurt by the same hits as most people. The body certainly can learn to absorb punishment without pain and without injury to a degree better than "average". There is, of course, no such thing as invunerable.

 

[Murphy]

Maybe. The statement "the hits don't hurt" sounds like an Iron Shirt Chi Kung idea: When people strike you, you feel no pain. I understand you're speaking of moving and not just standing there taking a strike, but the context is a mob attack...sooner or later someone is going to land a punch on the jaw, and it's gonna hurt, it seems to me.

Of course when you are fighting multiple attackers, you will get hit. There is no getting away from taking painful punches and strikes, in any art. Systema does have some interesting ways to train it though. ​

In class we used to do push drills in groups. Everyone participating in the class would move in a chaotic fashion, pushing each other and yeilding accordingly. You were never static, being pushed aside once, then hit with a palm as your turning, etc. As time progressed, we'd move to punches (which includes delivering, evading, and yeilding all at once.)

I learned the most important factor in absorbtion with systema (or any art) is yeilding and rotating in the direction of the strike itself. When a punch lands on a systema player, they yeild to the force in the direction it's coming. There are lots of possibilites for redirection or retaliation after all the force from the strike has been neutralized.


​

After taking a hard hit from someone in systema, you learn to relax the area through breathing "through the skin" and moving your awareness. Lasting pain is caused by tension in your muscles, so you relax to take it away (of course this excludes the instance when you are hit with bone by another hard object). It's an invaluable skill. There are many more factors that go into blow absorbtion also, like internal pressure, planes of resistance in muscles, etc, but I think thats enough for now.​

- Murphy

 

[Loki]

Well-struck muscles contract involuntarily, relaxed as you may be.

And I still fail to see the point of mob drills. Your goal is self-defense, right? Why stay and duke it out when you can get out of there?

 

[Murphy]

Well-struck muscles contract involuntarily, relaxed as you may be.

And I still fail to see the point of mob drills. Your goal is self-defense, right? Why stay and duke it out when you can get out of there?

Yes, they contract automatically, but they stay contracted which causes prolonged pain. We relax it after the contraction so the pain dissipates. Good to clear that up.

You can't always ' get out of there '. If you're stuck in the middle of a mob or in a confined space, you have to learn to stack people on each other, absorb simultanious strikes, yeild to pressure, and strike others yourself.
Preparing for the worst of situations.

If all you want to practice is running away, you should pick up track.

 

[Loki]

Yes, they contract automatically, but they stay contracted which causes prolonged pain. We relax it after the contraction so the pain dissipates. Good to clear that up.

Just want to make sure we have: Muscles contract involuntarily after being struck and decontract when the lactic acids have been "drained" from the muscle. This decontraction process occurs by itself, relaxing simply makes it easier to bear and makes sure you don't prolong the process unnecessarily. Then again, sometimes tensing your muscles allows you to prevent it from auto-contracting in the first place...

You can't always ' get out of there '. If you're stuck in the middle of a mob or in a confined space, you have to learn to stack people on each other, absorb simultanious strikes, yeild to pressure, and strike others yourself.
Preparing for the worst of situations.

If all you want to practice is running away, you should pick up track.

Then you defend as best as possible and move outwards, striking as the need arises, and then run.
All I want from brawls is running away. It's one of those situations where a fight can be avoided, since it's a barbaric free-for-all. People probably won't be hunting you down in it, so just get out.

 

[jellyman]

Simply put - if you breath correctly you relax. If you relax, the shockwave from blows to the body will travel through you, and not wind you. Obviously there is a matter of degree - some will be better and take harder blows than others.

Take a piece of wood, about 2 feet long. Throw it in mid-air, and if you are good, you can break it with a strike.

Take a length of hose, a rope, or a chain about 2 feet long. Throw it in mid-air, and it will be much much harder for you to beak it with a strike.

Our bodies are like irregular chains of bones sheathed in muscle. Tense the muscles, we become more like sticks. Relax the muscles, we become more like the rope.

Progressively learn to relax those muscles on impact reflexively, and you will become relaxed on impact. Actually, you may find yourself somewhat enjoying it.

We (at Vlad's) also do the same sort of training for hooks to the jaw. By relaxing, the punches shockwave can be disippated through the body, as a wave. We have a specific head movement to help this. If you cannot accept being hit, your neck will be stiff, and yuo cannot take so hard a hit. The more you get better at relaxing on the hit, the harder a punch you can take. Straight up the pipe punches are harder to absorb, but we (I - I can't really speak for everyone, although it's tempting, but many do this) tend to hide the center line with footwork. That said, I can ride out a pretty good punch on the beezer.

I am speaking from experience here. This is how you work your way up to hard contact without benefit of padding. This is how you learn what a real hit feels like so you don't get surprised when someone hits you.

The benefits of mass fighting are many. You overcome fear of contact. Getting hit becomes impersonal, so you no longer get mad at someone for hitting you - he/she meant nothing personal. You learn to avoid drawing strikes by blending in. You learn to defend strikes from many angles. You learn to be aware. You learn to be relaxed under pressure. It goes on and on.

You can argue about the effectiveness of absorption training all day, it will mean nothing. You can only verify the truth of this by doing, and training, under someone who can do this, and can show you how.


We do not advocate fighting if you don't have to , but you must prepare. Otherwise, why spar, why wrestle, why do grab-escapes, why train MA at all? Just focus on track and field.

 

[jellyman]

I should add that you are also being taught how to move body parts so you can absorb in specific manners/ directions. A bit like electric boogaloo.

 

[jellyman]

Another PS

I went to Moscow in 2000 and asked Mikhail Ryabko (most senior person in systema today) to show me how to absorb strikes. As part of it he hit me very hard in the solar plexus, causing my stomache to cramp. Using breathing techniques much like lamaze, under his direction, I learned to breath away the pain. This skill came in very useful later on.