The Straight Bladed Ninja Sword is awesome...

[Muawijhe]

Out of curiosity, mind telling us about "Chifuka-ryu ninjitsu"? It is not a style I am familiar with...

 

[Bruno@MT]

Out of curiosity, mind telling us about "Chifuka-ryu ninjitsu"? It is not a style I am familiar with...

Oh dear...
Someone get the hose. There are ninjers on the lawn.

opcorn:

 

[Chifuka-ryu]

In a similar vein, Hatsumi sensei has never outright kicked people out or publicly said they were out. Every Japanese person knows perfectly well that an absence of public support for Hayes means he is out. Yet because of the lack of denouncement that would be expected in the west, Hayes is still claiming to be on good terms with Hatsumi because in the US, he can still sell the story that not being denounced in public must mean that he is still in good graces.

Prove it. It is the same story the haters of Stephen Hayes have been using. We know of no comment by his teacher, and yet we are supposed to automatically assume this does not mean that he is unaware of the situation. We are supposed to think that he knows, but says nothing for or against.

Considering the story I have heard about people taking Stephen Hayes' name down without his teacher's consent, it seems clear that there is a very clear attempt to control what the senior teachers in Japan hear.

 

[Chifuka-ryu]

Son, you are seriously behind the times here. I posted that blog nearly two months ago (see the previous page), on the 4th of November, and it has already been discussed. It was discussed in even more detail over on MAP, and the prevailing thought was that, aside from the rather heavy handed Hayes propaganda in the blog (talking about conspiracies against him and so forth), there was real doubt as to whether or not this was actually a quote from Hatsumi, as the wording and phrasing doesn't match his speaking style or writing style, and it is remarkably close to a very similar section in Ninjutsu: History and Traditions, which Hayes ghost wrote, rather than Hatsumi.

People such as Don Roley commented that oftentimes editors add sections to articles, and it could very easily be that the editor just added it in themselves.

Oh, and for the record, Ninja magazine is not really regarded as a credible source.... it frequently had expert articles from such luminaries as Harunaka Hoshino, James Loriega, and so on.

And maybe it was not added in by editors. Don Roley seems to be one of the haters of Stephen Hayes who may have had a hand in taking down his name in Japan without his teacher's consent. Somewhere he has a blog attacking Sensei Hayes and saying he never learned sword in Japan. He uses the straight blade argument to try to discredit Sensei Hayes. I do not consider him a reliable source.

Stephen Hayes is an honorable man without whom we may never have heard of ninjitsu. If he knew that his teacher had not written that the swords were straight he would admit it. All we have is the word of some serious haters of Sensei Hayes.

 

[Sukerkin]

I don't know what to say to that really - if it were down to things being as you say they are then you might have a point. But it's not.

If you won't listen to reason then it's pointless talking to you. Enjoy your views.

"Reason" here, in the way I mean the term, is supported by actually having been a professional in the field of history (there's an M.A. after my name that says I have fooled others into thinking I know what I'm talking about in such matters). It is not supported by wishful thinking or elaborating on fabrications and accepting that as reality.

There are enough myths and half-truths in the subject area of the sword arts as it is without importing more.

 

[jks9199]

I think we can all agree that Stephen Hayes is a skilled martial artist who has done an impressive job of spreading his take on the martial arts covered by the "ninjutsu" label. He certainly did a lot to spread what I'll call credible ninjutsu in the West. I think it's also a pretty safe bet that he did some pretty effective self-promotion, too...

It is clear from multiple sources that Hatsumi has had Hayes's name removed from the public board in the Bujinkan hombu dojo, and has made it clear to people in Japan that Hayes is on his own path. That may mean something as simple as Hayes stopped paying dues... or that he deviated too far from what Hatsumi wanted done. It's a matter between them -- and only the two of them know the truth of their current relationship.

Let's not let these issues lead us into murky and unpleasant waters, OK?

 

[Sukerkin]

I quite concurr. To me the ins-and-outs of who said what to whom in the Ninjitsu area of martial arts is largely irrelevant. It is not that I don't care in a negative sense but more that it has no impact on me whatsoever.

All I am addressing is the historical 'truths' as we know them at present with regard to the mythical ninja-to. If all of us stick to that line of thinking then we should be fine :fingers crossed:.

 

[Bruno@MT]

And maybe it was not added in by editors. Don Roley seems to be one of the haters of Stephen Hayes who may have had a hand in taking down his name in Japan without his teacher's consent. Somewhere he has a blog attacking Sensei Hayes and saying he never learned sword in Japan. He uses the straight blade argument to try to discredit Sensei Hayes. I do not consider him a reliable source.

Stephen Hayes is an honorable man without whom we may never have heard of ninjitsu. If he knew that his teacher had not written that the swords were straight he would admit it. All we have is the word of some serious haters of Sensei Hayes.

No you also have the word of any scholar who has ever looked into the issue.
And if you really believe that Hayes' name was taken down in public without Hatsumi sensei's explicit permission, then you are seriously misguided. NOTHING happens in a hombu dojo without permission of the headmaster.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Prove it. It is the same story the haters of Stephen Hayes have been using. We know of no comment by his teacher, and yet we are supposed to automatically assume this does not mean that he is unaware of the situation. We are supposed to think that he knows, but says nothing for or against.

Considering the story I have heard about people taking Stephen Hayes' name down without his teacher's consent, it seems clear that there is a very clear attempt to control what the senior teachers in Japan hear.

As I said in another post, nothing happens in the hombu dojo without the explicit consent of Hatsumi sensei. Or don't you think he would be aware of the disappearance of the name plate, and ask questions if it was done without his approval?
Yours is really tenuous reasoning there.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I quite concurr. To me the ins-and-outs of who said what to whom in the Ninjitsu area of martial arts is largely irrelevant. It is not that I don't care in a negative sense but more that it has no impact on me whatsoever.

All I am addressing is the historical 'truths' as we know them at present with regard to the mythical ninja-to. If all of us stick to that line of thinking then we should be fine :fingers crossed:.

The problem is that they are intertwined to some degree, since Hayes championned the straight bladed ninja-to myth for a long time.

 

[Chris Parker]

Prove it. It is the same story the haters of Stephen Hayes have been using. We know of no comment by his teacher, and yet we are supposed to automatically assume this does not mean that he is unaware of the situation. We are supposed to think that he knows, but says nothing for or against.

Considering the story I have heard about people taking Stephen Hayes' name down without his teacher's consent, it seems clear that there is a very clear attempt to control what the senior teachers in Japan hear.

Prove it? Really? Okay....

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69747

Go to post 7, and read the screen capture. You'll see the words "Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away from the Bujinkan..."

Hatsumi ordered the name plate to be removed. Saying that he knew nothing about it shows that, frankly, you know nothing about it. Stop while you're behind, it's only going to get worse from here for you....

And maybe it was not added in by editors. Don Roley seems to be one of the haters of Stephen Hayes who may have had a hand in taking down his name in Japan without his teacher's consent. Somewhere he has a blog attacking Sensei Hayes and saying he never learned sword in Japan. He uses the straight blade argument to try to discredit Sensei Hayes. I do not consider him a reliable source.

Stephen Hayes is an honorable man without whom we may never have heard of ninjitsu. If he knew that his teacher had not written that the swords were straight he would admit it. All we have is the word of some serious haters of Sensei Hayes.

Don is not a "hater", really, he just has incredibly high standards that he wants other people to live up to (for the record, he has consistently attacked my organisation as well, and my Chief Instructor, but it's just the approach he has, a verÿ "this is the way it must be" kinda thing). He is, however, an author who has experience in the publishing field in regard to magazine articles, and his word can be taken as authoritative (and for the record, it was a theory he posited based on knowing how the industry works, not a definitive claim). The person who said that Hayes didn't learn much sword in Japan was, you'll never guess this, Steve Hayes.

Not considering Don a reliable source isn't really giving your argument any weight, as you are far from credible here. After all, you haven't learnt to even spell Ninjutsu yet.

For the record, my first introduction to the art was "Ninja: the Invisible Assasins" by Andrew Adams (the same as my Chief Instructor, as it happens), followed by Hayes' books. Hell, I even had one of the straight black "ninjato bokken", I think it's still around here somewhere actually, but that doesn't change the fact that so far there are no supporting statements in Japanese, no supporting aspects of the Bujinkan arts, the only statements are a book ghost written by Hayes, other books by Hayes, and a single highly suspicious article. Hayes himself backtracked and switched from claiming it was accurate to claiming that it was part of a stereotype (again, evidence of this is difficult to come by, to say the least....), part of a myth, not something that had any basis in reality, now he has switched back to "see, told you so!", with little behind it other than trying to make himself bigger again (not something that I feel he should feel he needs to do, and frankly it just saddens me to see him do that again). He was a pioneer in this art, and remains incredibly important due to that position, however there have been a huge number of claims of his that have not stood the test of time. And his need to be seen as right really gets in the way sometimes.

 

[Muawijhe]

Outside of political dealings, why do people want the ninja-to to be real over myth?

Must want it pretty bad, for reasons I cannot see, to overlook historical evidence and constantly resort to "he said, she said" word of mouth arguments.

 

[Sukerkin]

An intriguing question, that one, aye :nods:.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Something else to consider: it is highly improbable that anyone would be able to forge a ninjato with a hamon like it is displayed in popular media. A hamon implies differential heat treatment with a clay coating. With something as long as a sword, this will cause the mechanical stresses that bends the sword backwards. It is not common knowledge, but a katana is perfectly straight right before heat treatment. You can actually see the sword bending backwards when it goes into the water.

The amount of 'bend' can e controlled of course. Some swords are straighter than others. But a perfectly straight blade is not an option. And if we are going to allow for an amount of curvature, then we are back with a regular katana with (optionally) a square tsuba. But even square tsuba seem a bit unlikely in my inexperienced opinion, because the chances that it would catch clothing during the draw seems too high. Especially when drawing from a place of concealment such as inside an outer garment.

 

[Tanaka]

Outside of political dealings, why do people want the ninja-to to be real over myth?

Must want it pretty bad, for reasons I cannot see, to overlook historical evidence and constantly resort to "he said, she said" word of mouth arguments.

Because it gives credibility back to wannabe Ninja. Whom have used straight ninjato and claimed it was from Ninja. For example "ChosonNinja" on youtube tries desperately to prove Ninja used straight swords. Because he made the statement "This sword was passed down to me from generation to generation"
While holding a typical marketed straight Ninjato.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Because it gives credibility back to wannabe Ninja. Whom have used straight ninjato and claimed it was from Ninja. For example "ChosonNinja" on youtube tries desperately to prove Ninja used straight swords. Because he made the statement "This sword was passed down to me from generation to generation"
While holding a typical marketed straight Ninjato.

That's the thing.
Once you have committed wholly to a story, you cannot backtrack without making yourself look like a schlemiel and publicly admit you made it all up.

 

[Tanaka]

That's the thing.
Once you have committed wholly to a story, you cannot backtrack without making yourself look like a schlemiel and publicly admit you made it all up.

Yep, so we will constantly have people trying to prove a "straight ninjato"
because they want those "ninja masters" to be real.
Normally for these mundane reasons.
1)It fulfills their fantasies
2)They're apart of it.

 

[ElfTengu]

1. Choson Ninja is meant to be a Christian and really shouldn't be lying quite so much.

2. No one 'hates' Stephen Hayes but a lot of us do not thank him for all the information his books put into our brains which has had to be removed and replaced with accurate facts.

 

[Aiki Lee]

To comment on that, as a Christian myself, Choson Ninja's theology is highly suspect as well.

 

[ElfTengu]

To comment on that, as a Christian myself, Choson Ninja's theology is highly suspect as well.

These kinds of people cannot take anything, be it a martial art, a religion, or probably a hamburger, without avoiding all the hard work of progressing through an authentic curriculum via an authentic organisation. They always have to jump straight to Grandmaster, High Priest, Ronald McDonald status without putting the graft in.

p.s. For ninjato fans, it is possible that eta-class untouchables waggled machete-like urukai-esque cleavers at one another but this doesn't make them 'swords', and the only other real possibility is that of a ninja who worked in a tuna-gutting factory by day and was a ninja by night, but I doubt if such individuals could cover the aroma of their diurnal occupation.