The State of Karate

[Cirdan]

Use either adjective. It doesn't change the meaning. I would use effective because it is straight to the point and I have no such negative connotation personally.

As I said, I am an advocate for my karate. Advocacy means considerably more action than just adopting a laissez faire attitude towards promoting karate. If you are not an advocate, that is fine. However, there is nothing wrong with people who do want to project or publicize a high standard of karate, and I would argue that the whole Mr. Miyagi sense of 'humility' (for lack of a better word) is in fact a modern construction.

I`ll take humility over tough guy every time.

 

[dancingalone]

I`ll take humility over tough guy every time.

And I would take measured confidence over both.

 

[dancingalone]

I mean that sure, Choki Motobu was a serious bad-*** who did not pass up opportunities to fight for the honor of karate, and it appears that his concept of karate was strictly for fighting. However, Okinawan karate is not the beginning of martial arts, and it seems to me that some early Okinawan practitioners absorbed what they wanted and left out some of the other aspects of what was being taught in China. I say this not to disparage, but simply to point out that the history of karate may be rooted in fighting effectiveness, but the history of martial arts in general may not be.

The reading I have done on Okinawan karate suggests that it was always meant to be brutal fighting system. More recently, people like Funakoshi or Nagamine began to introduce the ideas of personal growth and self-restraint into the physical practice. Accordingly I believe when one starts waxing on with the Mr. Miyagi aphorisms, one is in fact adopting a more modern view of karate.

I learned karate from an Okinawan gentleman. Perhaps he is the exception now, but training was all about the physical aspect. I could recount on one hand the times he took it in him to speak about the dojo kun or any related topic.

I think about how fondly I feel about people who like to bend my ear about their particular flavor of religion...

Hey, you're the one interjecting the religious idea into it.

Nope, nothing wrong with it. I just a) don't feel that need and b) would actually prefer it if everyone thinks I'm a wimp and my skills are useless Power Ranger nonsense.

OK. As a teacher I obviously have different needs.

 

[Cirdan]

The reading I have done on Okinawan karate suggests that it was always meant to be brutal fighting system. More recently, people like Funakoshi or Nagamine began to introduce the ideas of personal growth and self-restraint into the physical practice. Accordingly I believe when one starts waxing on with the Mr. Miyagi aphorisms, one is in fact adopting a more modern view of karate.

I learned karate from an Okinawan gentleman. Perhaps he is the exception now, but training was all about the physical aspect. I could recount on one hand the times he took it in him to speak about the dojo kun or any related topic.

You know, being humble has no effect on how capable you are when it comes to break someone`s neck or tearing his throat out.

Do you have something personal against Mr Miyagi? Actually I just watched the movie for the first time very recently and I`ve never memorized any kind of Dojo Kun either.. except a few rules for the kids. Eat your vegetables, listen to mom etc

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The reading I have done on Okinawan karate suggests that it was always meant to be brutal fighting system. More recently, people like Funakoshi or Nagamine began to introduce the ideas of personal growth and self-restraint into the physical practice. Accordingly I believe when one starts waxing on with the Mr. Miyagi aphorisms, one is in fact adopting a more modern view of karate.

I think I understand you more clearly now. You originally said: "I really think this is a modern outlook. I find it hard to believe that guys like Choki Motobu if pressed to demonstrate the effectiveness of their art would have turned their cheek and walked away." Yes, I agree that someone like him would hardly have turned their cheek and walked away. However, I don't think that his outlook is all that ancient. For Okinawan Karate, yes. But compared to the history of martial arts, Okinawan Karate is 'modern' no matter how far back you go. Sorry for any confusion.

'Te' may well be ancient, but I don't know much about it. Karate is modern, so from a certain point of view, there are no 'ancient' traditions in Karate.

 

[seasoned]

I absolutely agree with everything else, but I think this statement ^^^ was only true of certain guys in certain dojos in certain cities in the US at certain times and perhaps in other countries.

I like to read the old articles in US newspapers about martial arts at various times, like the late 1800's, the early 1920's, and the 1950's, when for various reasons it attracted public notice. Many were the judo clubs and so on that were primarily for 'health' reasons, or for further study of 'the orient' and so on. Not all were for bad boys who liked to kick the hell out of people. Perhaps certain karate dojos at a particular time...

In the 60s dojo I trained at and was involved in, this bad boy attitude would get your a_ _ kicked before you even left the dojo. I feel now that Karate is for everyone, but there was a point in time when, coming up through the ranks, that there was a weeding out process that made it almost impossible for everyone to make it to the coveted Black Belt. These were hard times, that would not cut it now. It wasn't a matter of making it to BB but just making it through a sparring class.

 

[Tez3]

the ground fighting in kata is an argument for another Thread.

I was not trying to use it as an insult. The guy was dogging kata. I was talking about the way most "MMAer"s as well as other sportest take kata out of the art so that they can train more for sport. (my first Sensei is one of those. He is my best friend. It's ok he is not going to karate hell. I just don't agree with him)
I went to this guys website. He is a World Class Point Fighter. His Black Belt is in TKD.

If you are a MMA person more power to you, have fun with that. You are more than likely in better shape than me. I was not trying to offend or insult anyone. Kata and karate from what I have been taught are for self defence. If you are attacked, that is the way I teach it. So no it is not the same as when you do it in a sporting event. Still effective i hope. I just don't see it as the same in my peanut brain. Please understand that I am talking about only my opinion we all know what opinions are like and that everyone has one.

He is right about Karate being watered down, and I would even venture to say that the compared to how most people in MMA train some Schools have become watered down but it all goes back to money I think. :asian:

I am a martial artist, I practice TMA and MMA. Karate is watered down when kata is 'performed' not used. It's watered down when kata is an end in itself, used to 'teach discipline' or to perform pretty shapes. Kata is pointless without Bunkai.
Most MMAers aren't professionals, they don't have the time to train any more than than TMA people. It's a mindset though and it's one that many karateka I know share, they train as if their lives depend on it, they explore the kata, look for effective/functional/workable techniques and they spar hard!
People want everything 'now', the idea of working for it over time has gone for many, that's part of the problem with the economy, instant credit so you can have that desired object now instead of working for it. With karate though, getting it all now, rushing through kata mindlessly, doing touch sparring, you are cheating yourself of the proper techniques and the satisfaction of knowing you are doing a thorough job. No one wants to train for years now for a belt, it's the sign of a 'good' training establishment these days if you can turn black belts out in a short time but the depth of knowledge is lacking.

 

[dancingalone]

You know, being humble has no effect on how capable you are when it comes to break someone`s neck or tearing his throat out.

Perhaps. I do believe you can neuter your karate to an extent by the attitude you train in. There is a fine balance to maintain between composure or centerness/balance along with martial spirit. It's one of the reasons why I believe hard sparring is necessary, to develop a strong sense of fighting spirit.

Do you have something personal against Mr Miyagi? Actually I just watched the movie for the first time very recently and I`ve never memorized any kind of Dojo Kun either.. except a few rules for the kids. Eat your vegetables, listen to mom etc

I prefer Choki Motobu over Gichin Funakoshi as models of karate sensei. Chojin Miyagi over Shoshin Nagamine.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, I agree that someone like him would hardly have turned their cheek and walked away. However, I don't think that his outlook is all that ancient. For Okinawan Karate, yes. But compared to the history of martial arts, Okinawan Karate is 'modern' no matter how far back you go. Sorry for any confusion.

Ah. Well that goes without saying. Karate is not a koryu art after all.

Okinawan karate is a recently formulated fighting system with influences from a variety of national sources, including China. Little information has survived to suggest that the self-improvement aspect so promoted these days were present in the older practice of it. But more recently, we can see from the writings of men like Nagamine or Funakoshi that they indeed passed on such ideals to their students.

 

[Cirdan]

Perhaps. I do believe you can neuter your karate to an extent by the attitude you train in. There is a fine balance to maintain between composure or centerness/balance along with martial spirit. It's one of the reasons why I believe hard sparring is necessary, to develop a strong sense of fighting spirit.

No argument there.

I prefer Choki Motobu over Gichin Funakoshi as models of karate sensei. Chojin Miyagi over Shoshin Nagamine.

I generally avoid idolizing the sensei of that time too much, but I can see why you prefer those two. The founder of Wado Ryu, Hironori Otsuka, trained with both Funakoshi and Motobu. This also led to disagreements (on the role of sparring for instance) and a parting of ways between Funakoshi and Otsuka. I believe you can see the yin/yang duality very clearly in Wado since it focuses both on relaxation/harmony and dicipline/willpower (trough training, not recitation of texts and such bull). The Wado symbol also represents this with the dove encircling the fist.

 

[Tez3]

No argument there.



I generally avoid idolizing the sensei of that time too much, but I can see why you prefer those two. The founder of Wado Ryu, Hironori Otsuka, trained with both Funakoshi and Motobu. This also led to disagreements (on the role of sparring for instance) and a parting of ways between Funakoshi and Otsuka. I believe you can see the yin/yang duality very clearly in Wado since it focuses both on relaxation/harmony and dicipline/willpower (trough training, not recitation of texts and such bull). The Wado symbol also represents this with the dove encircling the fist.

All reasons I love Wado!

 

[Ojisan]

I'm at the point where if someone asks what it is I am practicing, I mutter something about "tode". Not to the knowledgeable but to the general public who cannot differentiate TKD from Systema. It just saves me a lot of explaining.

The dojo where my friends train is in the basement of a church. Once a year at Christmas everyone goes out to eat together. A couple of years ago I joined them for dinner and during the post prandial conversation the pastor asked why adults would want to study karate. I kept quiet so she would't throw my friends out for teaching violence and retaliation.

The new "Karate Kid" movie features Jackie Chan as the teacher! While Mr Chan is a talented acrobatics performer, it is reflective of societal attitudes toward karate that he would be accepted by an audience as a credible teacher of karate.

Karate, as it is understood by the general public, is simply not an accurate term for what I do.

I don't think that it is a bad thing for people to study karate for health, fitness, or personal development. I just think the terminology is inadequate to convey the essence of what individuals might be practicing.

So ends my rant.

 

[Maiden_Ante]

It's pretty irritating nowadays when you say that you practice karate and have people not even think you're tough at all.

It's pretty irritating with people who needs to think others believe they are tough.

 

[RevDogo]

looking tough is for ego, skill is what is more important

 

[KenpoVzla]

Why is it important to be considered tough?

It's pretty irritating with people who needs to think others believe they are tough.

It's not that I "need" to be considered tough. I've never had to prove myself, nor do I feel I have to do it, but I do think karate should be taken to the next level, so that it's considered a respected art and not a lower less intense version of what it should be.

looking tough is for ego, skill is what is more important

And I do agree, But the issue refers to karate nowadays itself, not me or any karateka individually.

You train hard, you know you can punch, you know you can fight, then why doesn't this image co-relate with your training?

Other arts don't seem to have this problem.

 

[Cirdan]

It's not that I "need" to be considered tough. I've never had to prove myself, nor do I feel I have to do it, but I do think karate should be taken to the next level, so that it's considered a respected art and not a lower less intense version of what it should be.

If you train at a good dojo, your training is already at "the next level".
Karate is still respected where it matters.

And I do agree, But the issue refers to karate nowadays itself, not me or any karateka individually.

You train hard, you know you can punch, you know you can fight, then why doesn't this image co-relate with your training?

Other arts don't seem to have this problem.

Oh, but they do. Karate, Taekwondo, Kung Fu, Savate, Tai Chi, Ninjutsu, Aikido etc all face ridicule all the time.
Funny thing is, Koryu arts like Kyudo and Kenjutsu seem to be immune to this, probably because they don`t care.