The source of Chi, a Biological *and* metaphysical explanation?

[K-man]

I believe it is absolutely inappropriate to try and equate qi with biological or electrical or other scientific processes.

I know that a lot of people are skeptical about qi. Personally, I believe that it does exist in all of us, but it is very subtle to the point that most people are simply unaware of it. It is also something that is its own thing, which modern science has not yet been able to identify or describe.

People who I trust have described it as something that can definitely be felt, and even controlled. The problem is that it takes a lot of training and focus to reach that point, especially the point of being able to control it. Most people never reach that point, most people remain oblivious to it, and they get along just fine that way. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Perhaps someday modern/Western science will be able to identify, measure, and describe qi. But that day has not yet come.

Some people are particularly gifted when it comes to mathematics. I can not do what they do but it is obvious that they have a mental ability I do not posess. Is their ability real or is it a hoax? Obviously it is real. Can I train to improve my mathematical ability? Yes I can, if I want to and if I am prepared to put in the effort required.
Similarly with ki. If a person can do things to me that defy rational explanation, ie physical, do I deny it has happened and say that it is not possible? No. I may not be able to do what they do, but with their guidance I too may be able to develop the same ability, if I am willing to put in the time and effort required.
In thread after thread people who do not understand ki pass it off as BS. People post YouTube videos that are impossible to verify and use those to prove/disprove their opinion. Go and experience ki first hand from someone who genuinely applies ki in their training, then pass comment.
From personal experience I know that ki is real and hopefully, one day I will be able to apply it effectively. :asian:

 

[bluekey88]

How would you explain two people (6' 200 lbs and 6'2 225lbs) not being able to lift one person (5'8 150 lbs) off the ground and one person (6' 200 lbs) with two hands who can not bend a person's (5'8 150 lbs) arm is a magic trick? What could that person do physically to prevent them from doing that? No offense, just curious as to your explanation of how it's done.

Michael

There was a great website that expose dhow some of these tricks were done, but it no longer exists. I'll try to do my best with just words. Simply put...unliftable body usually works like this...

Person A will have one or two people (the bigger the better) lift them. They do this no problem. Then the perosn "grounds" their ki/chi/qi. Then the the lifters struggle to lift that person as if they have becom eheavy.

In the one person version, the lift is done at the elbows. The liftee bends there arms at their sides and the lifter puishes up form beneath at the liftee's elbows. For the successful lift, the liftee remains stiff and the elbows are pointing straight down. On the unsuccessful lift, the liftee shifts the elbows forward slighlty (about a half inch). This is enough to shift the center of gravity forward slightly. Second they relax and this makes them more unwieldy (like a sack of potatoes).

It's a similar idea with the two person lift. the lifters are on either side of the liftee, lifting at the arms. When the liftee is stiff and the arms are closer to the body, the lift goes well. By moving the arms out slightly (redirecting the force in a more inward direction instead of straight up), relaxing, and also keeping the two lifters from lifting "into" each other (one arm slightly forward, the other slightly backward)...th ebig strong guys actually interfere with each other and their strength and directions of force cancel each other out. What happens is they skitter backwards and forward around the floor never quite lifting thing liftee.

Similar trick with the unbendable arm (changing the angle of the arm just slightly so as to redirect force downward instead of inward).

It's actually great stuff...good to learn these subtle manipulations to manage physical force. Usefulo in a martial sense so far as I'm concerned...but too often lost in the mystical mumbo jumbo to be of real use. The real lessons of proper structure get lost.

No magic, just physics.

Peace,
Erik

 

[jarrod]

i've done both of these tricks. in the one person lift, i had someone skeptical grab me around the waist rather than at the arms, & they were unable to lift me. i'm not consistent with it & haven't done it in years, but the unbendable arm is pretty easy to do. it may be simple physics, but it isn't always a conscious manipulation. it's possible that the visualizations i learned somehow directed me to subconsciously move my arm a certain way, but if so i'm not aware of it when i do it. i still refer to these as tricks, because i've somehow never managed to have an unbendable arm when caught in a good armbar.

just playing devil's advocate here.

jf

 

[bluekey88]

Some people are particularly gifted when it comes to mathematics. I can not do what they do but it is obvious that they have a mental ability I do not posess. Is their ability real or is it a hoax? Obviously it is real. Can I train to improve my mathematical ability? Yes I can, if I want to and if I am prepared to put in the effort required.
Similarly with ki. If a person can do things to me that defy rational explanation, ie physical, do I deny it has happened and say that it is not possible? No. I may not be able to do what they do, but with their guidance I too may be able to develop the same ability, if I am willing to put in the time and effort required.
In thread after thread people who do not understand ki pass it off as BS. People post YouTube videos that are impossible to verify and use those to prove/disprove their opinion. Go and experience ki first hand from someone who genuinely applies ki in their training, then pass comment.
From personal experience I know that ki is real and hopefully, one day I will be able to apply it effectively. :asian:

I'm not sayign that some of what is attributed to Ki is real. I'm just saying that the ki explanations don't hold water and that in my experience the answers are usually simpler and a lot less mystical. It is a common phenomenon to attribute mystical explanations to that which we don't understand...has happened countless times in history. However, sticking to the principel of occam's razor (and being willing to stay flexible and opened minded in skepticality) I've been willing to take in new information and change my point of view as rather tahn hold true to my beliefs in the face of new information.

I grew up (literally and in a marital sense) in the Philadelphia/South Jersey region. This is one of the hot spot growth areas for Aikido. I swear, you can't swing a dead cat and not hit a good Aikidoka around here. I studied Aikido diligently for years. I saw the ki demonstrations. I was a big kid/teen and was often thrown around by Murayama Sensei when he came to town to visit our Dojo. I couldn't explain that feeling of getting sucked into a maelstrom and spit out (without seemingly being touched). I mreally bought into all of that.

Later I did some CMA stuff...and on and on...

here's the thing, it's occam's razor. Rather than say Murayama used incredible KI powers to mysteically throw my around like a rag doll (thus violating the laws of physics as we know them)...ti is more reasonable to say he used well-practiced, well-refined mastered skills that duisrupted me physically (took my balance, negated my speed/strength), disrupted my psychologically (disrupted my intent, put me on the defensive, startled the cr@p out of me )...in doing so he was able to control me and throw me about like a rag doll in a seemingly effortless manner.

I've seen other poepl do th esame thing to me in other disciplines...none of them claimed "ki".

I want to know how this stuff works...I jus think it would be easier if we got down to the basic nuts and bolts explanations and left the mytical stuff out of it. It takes away from the learning and discovery as the mystical explanations tend to cloud the objectivity.

Peace,
Erik

 

[bluekey88]

i've done both of these tricks. in the one person lift, i had someone skeptical grab me around the waist rather than at the arms, & they were unable to lift me. i'm not consistent with it & haven't done it in years, but the unbendable arm is pretty easy to do. it may be simple physics, but it isn't always a conscious manipulation. it's possible that the visualizations i learned somehow directed me to subconsciously move my arm a certain way, but if so i'm not aware of it when i do it. i still refer to these as tricks, because i've somehow never managed to have an unbendable arm when caught in a good armbar.

just playing devil's advocate here.

jf

That's a valid point. In my experience, most of the folks that have doine these demonstrations were earnest and not scam artists. These are subtle shifts and could easily be attributed to a feeling of Ki that really is a certain way to relax and shift ones structure so as to accomplish the trick. If one wants to believe...they will atrribute that feeling to ki and not to a change in body structure. The human mind/psyche is a fascinating thing.

Peace,
Erik

 

[K-man]

I was a big kid/teen and was often thrown around by Murayama Sensei when he came to town to visit our Dojo. I couldn't explain that feeling of getting sucked into a maelstrom and spit out (without seemingly being touched). I mreally bought into all of that.

Later I did some CMA stuff...and on and on...

here's the thing, it's occam's razor. Rather than say Murayama used incredible KI powers to mysteically throw my around like a rag doll (thus violating the laws of physics as we know them)...ti is more reasonable to say he used well-practiced, well-refined mastered skills that duisrupted me physically (took my balance, negated my speed/strength), disrupted my psychologically (disrupted my intent, put me on the defensive, startled the cr@p out of me )...in doing so he was able to control me and throw me about like a rag doll in a seemingly effortless manner.

So would it be possible to say he used his mind to help him achieve those feats?

 

[bluekey88]

So would it be possible to say he used his mind to help him achieve those feats?

Absolutely, we use our minds to do just about everything...however, that's a far cry from manipulating some mystical, unmeasureable energy.

 

[Tez3]

There was a great website that expose dhow some of these tricks were done, but it no longer exists. I'll try to do my best with just words. Simply put...unliftable body usually works like this...

Person A will have one or two people (the bigger the better) lift them. They do this no problem. Then the perosn "grounds" their ki/chi/qi. Then the the lifters struggle to lift that person as if they have becom eheavy.

In the one person version, the lift is done at the elbows. The liftee bends there arms at their sides and the lifter puishes up form beneath at the liftee's elbows. For the successful lift, the liftee remains stiff and the elbows are pointing straight down. On the unsuccessful lift, the liftee shifts the elbows forward slighlty (about a half inch). This is enough to shift the center of gravity forward slightly. Second they relax and this makes them more unwieldy (like a sack of potatoes).

It's a similar idea with the two person lift. the lifters are on either side of the liftee, lifting at the arms. When the liftee is stiff and the arms are closer to the body, the lift goes well. By moving the arms out slightly (redirecting the force in a more inward direction instead of straight up), relaxing, and also keeping the two lifters from lifting "into" each other (one arm slightly forward, the other slightly backward)...th ebig strong guys actually interfere with each other and their strength and directions of force cancel each other out. What happens is they skitter backwards and forward around the floor never quite lifting thing liftee.

Similar trick with the unbendable arm (changing the angle of the arm just slightly so as to redirect force downward instead of inward).

It's actually great stuff...good to learn these subtle manipulations to manage physical force. Usefulo in a martial sense so far as I'm concerned...but too often lost in the mystical mumbo jumbo to be of real use. The real lessons of proper structure get lost.

No magic, just physics.

Peace,
Erik

We've done these 'tricks' in our club, our instructor told us how to do it, he said it's simply body mechanics exactly as you've explained.
There another one which I find useful at times, when someone shakes hands with you and likes to do that grip thing as if to say yeah I'm strong me, as you grip move your first two fingers along his wrist and he can no longer grip as hard. Magic! Well no, just body mechanics.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Absolutely, we use our minds to do just about everything...however, that's a far cry from manipulating some mystical, unmeasureable energy.

Qi is not mystical unmeasureable energy. The human body gives off heat which is energy which would fit one of the defination of Ren Qi or Human energy.

The problem is people try to define it as mystical energy instead of just energy. Qi is any type of energy thats it plan and simple.

Most of the time when we are speaking about Qi it is in the context of Ren Qi(human Qi) but we need to look at the other context of words used with Qi. Di Qi would be describe as Earth's Qi but it is not talking about mystical Earth energy it is talking about Geothermal,gravity and any other energy the Earth generates and produces. Tian Qi means Heaven's Qi but it is talking more about the atmosphere and the different gas exhanges.

 

[K-man]

Absolutely, we use our minds to do just about everything...however, that's a far cry from manipulating some mystical, unmeasureable energy.

So what you have just agreed is that he was able to use his mind to enhance his skills to do what you said he did.

duisrupted me physically (took my balance, negated my speed/strength), disrupted my psychologically (disrupted my intent, put me on the defensive, startled the cr@p out of me )...in doing so he was able to control me and throw me about like a rag doll in a seemingly effortless manner.

 

[exile]

So what you have just agreed is that he was able to use his mind to enhance his skills to do what you said he did.

If Qi means nothing more than using one's mind in order to determine a course of action in order to bring about a desired effect, then Qi becomes a synonym for nothing more remarkable than what the word planning normally conveys. That's not how the term Qi is used by those who believe that Qi represents some novel source of 'energy'. And energy in physics is derivative from the notion of force: it corresponds to the physical quantity described by force over a distance (to which certain conservation principles apply). When people talk about Qi in connection with energy, therefore, they're referring to an actual force of some kind, without which there can be no energy. That's what's entailed in any reference to Qi being done by something. If I chainsaw through a dead tree and it falls, the actual force that brings it to the ground is simply the force of gravity. Exactly how much is added to this by saying that it's 'Qi' that brought it down, since I used rational planning (i.e., my mind) to create a situation in which one of the three fundamental forces of nature—gravitation, in this case—applied to the tree to impose a certain motion on it? That's all that bluekey is talking about: someone doing something by planning it and employing sufficient means to bring it about. If you want to call that Qi, and then say that something happened because of it, fine. But there's nothing metaphysical about it.

It's standard at this point for people in such conversations to jump in and say, well, but what about consciousness itself—isn't that metaphysical ('beyond physical', literally)? But when this happens, what's going on is in effect a move in a shell game. The original claim is that the activity itself derives from some special energy (therefore force) which Qi is taken to embody; then all of sudden, we're not talking about the force involved in the activity but the nature of consciousness. The technical term for this kind of move is, 'red herring', or more specifically, 'category error'. When you talk about a specific component of a situation and identify it with the situation it's part of, that's a category error. And confusing the activity of planning to cause a tree to fall (consciousness in action) with the actual falling of the tree—that's a perfect example of that error.

 

[bluekey88]

So what you have just agreed is that he was able to use his mind to enhance his skills to do what you said he did.

NOt exactly. He used his mind to create intent. But there was no enhance,ment of what was not already there...there was no manipulation beyond what is afforded us in the mundane world. What hapooened, while extraordinary to em as a novice Aikidoka (at the time) was in fact just practiced skill.

Now, I don;t mean to seem dismissive...Murayama Sensei's skill is astounding and something to marvel. Frankluy, the dismissive thing is to enshroud the discussion of the skill, how to attain it, perfect it, whatever in metaphysical stuff that clouds the reality. It retards the learning process.

It's amazing what people can do within the confines of newtonian physics. Why ignore that? Why lessen that? The real world is truly incredible...better than any fiction, myth or dream we can imagine.

Peace,
Erik

 

[exile]

It's amazing what people can do within the confines of newtonian physics. Why ignore that? Why lessen that? The real world is truly incredible...better than any fiction, myth or dream we can imagine.

Peace,
Erik

Well put, Erik. Just take a look at the illustrations and photos in Carl Sagan's book Cosmos... there's more than enough for us to wonder and marvel at for the rest of time without bringing in invisible purple snargs as per Redmond's great dissection of Qi/ki as it's conventionally presented...

 

[K-man]

NOt exactly. He used his mind to create intent. But there was no enhance,ment of what was not already there...there was no manipulation beyond what is afforded us in the mundane world. What hapooened, while extraordinary to em as a novice Aikidoka (at the time) was in fact just practiced skill.

Now, I don;t mean to seem dismissive...Murayama Sensei's skill is astounding and something to marvel. Frankluy, the dismissive thing is to enshroud the discussion of the skill, how to attain it, perfect it, whatever in metaphysical stuff that clouds the reality. It retards the learning process.

It's amazing what people can do within the confines of newtonian physics. Why ignore that? Why lessen that? The real world is truly incredible...better than any fiction, myth or dream we can imagine.

Peace,
Erik

I'm not for one moment suggesting that by using the mind we are using ki. Ki, to me is a force, or spirit or intent controlled by the mind. To suggest that Murayama Sensei's skill was purely application or a practised skill doesn't ring true to me. Maruyama Sensei was a student of Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and of one of Ueshiba's greatest students, Koichi Tohei. These guys have ki. I have trained with a number of high ranked Aikido-ka of whom only one demonstrates ki so it is not something you learn easily. I'm not talking of ki 'tricks' but ki in application. Most Aikido relies on speed or power. Great when you're young. If you dismiss ki then all martial artists are going to be overtaken by their younger proteges. This is not the case with the masters. They have something else.
As to actually defining ki or measuring it, good luck. I wouldn't know where to begin. All I know is you can feel it, and you can see its effect on others when they are attacked by it. When you are hit by it, as in kokyu, you don't get up quickly. Is it metaphysical? I don't know. I think of it as an energy that is there, available to everybody. To learn to incorporate ki in my MA ... that is my goal. In the meantime, trying to analyse and define the elements of ki seems to me the same as looking out at a beautiful sunset and trying to analyse each segment to find why it seems so beautiful. By doing that we don't appreciate the beauty in front of our eyes.
BTW, if the unbendable arm is a 'trick' it is a very good one. Only one person has ever been able to bend my arm since I learnt the 'trick' and he is my Sensai. I don't turn it up, down or inside out. I just hold it out and extend ki. (Not a 'trick' that I learned overnight!) The unbendable arm is a valuable training tool.

If anybody is interested this address gives Tohei's Principles http://houstonkiaikido.org/What_Ki_4prin.htm

 

[bluekey88]

I'm not for one moment suggesting that by using the mind we are using ki. Ki, to me is a force, or spirit or intent controlled by the mind. To suggest that Murayama Sensei's skill was purely application or a practised skill doesn't ring true to me. Maruyama Sensei was a student of Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and of one of Ueshiba's greatest students, Koichi Tohei. These guys have ki. I have trained with a number of high ranked Aikido-ka of whom only one demonstrates ki so it is not something you learn easily. I'm not talking of ki 'tricks' but ki in application. Most Aikido relies on speed or power. Great when you're young. If you dismiss ki then all martial artists are going to be overtaken by their younger proteges. This is not the case with the masters. They have something else.
As to actually defining ki or measuring it, good luck. I wouldn't know where to begin. All I know is you can feel it, and you can see its effect on others when they are attacked by it. When you are hit by it, as in kokyu, you don't get up quickly. Is it metaphysical? I don't know. I think of it as an energy that is there, available to everybody. To learn to incorporate ki in my MA ... that is my goal. In the meantime, trying to analyse and define the elements of ki seems to me the same as looking out at a beautiful sunset and trying to analyse each segment to find why it seems so beautiful. By doing that we don't appreciate the beauty in front of our eyes.
BTW, if the unbendable arm is a 'trick' it is a very good one. Only one person has ever been able to bend my arm since I learnt the 'trick' and he is my Sensai. I don't turn it up, down or inside out. I just hold it out and extend ki. (Not a 'trick' that I learned overnight!) The unbendable arm is a valuable training tool.

If anybody is interested this address gives Tohei's Principles http://houstonkiaikido.org/What_Ki_4prin.htm

Ah, I suspected tyhis might be the issue. We're trippig over the "teo world's" concept...or what my Philosophy of mind professor called "Cartesian Dualism". It's the basic idea that there are two worlds. There's reality, then there is the almost-but-not-quite reality. It's what some religions/belifs call the spirit world. In some sc-fi myths...it's that hypespace/subspace thing. It also supports the idea of a brain/mind split. That is the brain (the physical thing in our head) is in reality while our Mind (that which we think with and makes us US) somehow is tied into this other place and controls the brain.

Simply put...there is no mind seperate from the brain. THis thing we call mind is the result of the interaction nested systems where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. (like the Beatles ). The concept of mind over matter comes form this (the idea that if we focus and think really hard we can control our bodies)...which is true in a sense, but at the same time, we are slave to our bodies and changes in our bodies will change our minds. Take a look at somehow who has survived a traumAtic brian injury to see the hard truth in this.

Like I said before. On efundamental thing that is true (not that I believe is true...it just is true...no ifs ands or buts). For something ot interact with matter (that is the stuff that make sup reality) it has to be a part of reality. Furthermore, to say soemthing is enbery is to say that at some level it is mater. Mr. Einstein's great equation (e=mc2) shows us that. So, there can't be an energy or force that permeates everything, but is seperate from everything, that can be controlled by focused intent....yet not interact with the matter that makes up our bodies (from which our mind comes form/is a part of).

Confused yet?

Again, people use Ki to talk about lots of things imprecicesly...because they don't hav eth elanguage to talk about what really is happening. This is fine when you, in fact, can't explain what it is you are doing/experiencing. However, in my opinion, it is better to educxate oneself to what is really happening and learning /creating precise language to talk abou tit rather than fall back on imprecise/poorly understood eastern mysticism to do so.

Peace,
Erik

 

[K-man]

Sorry but this has nothing to do with Cartesian Dualism. That is a totally spiritual concept of body and soul (or mind) dating back thousands of years, before being linked to Descartes in the 1600s. Dualism itself has many different propositions. In fact if you wanted to follow the track of 'property dualism' it does allow that mental causes can produce material effects, and vice-versa. This is called 'interactionism' but I digress.

Mind over matter may have some relevence although in this concept it is more mind over mind.

As to:

Again, people use Ki to talk about lots of things imprecicesly...because they don't hav eth elanguage to talk about what really is happening. This is fine when you, in fact, can't explain what it is you are doing/experiencing. However, in my opinion, it is better to educxate oneself to what is really happening and learning /creating precise language to talk abou tit rather than fall back on imprecise/poorly understood eastern mysticism to do so.

So true. I can descibe what is happening with great precision. I cannot explain what is happening. So I am open to 'better educating' myself if there is anybody that can provide an intelligent explanation that fits the facts. I certainly wouldn't want to rely on 'eastern mysticism'. :shrug:

 

[jarrod]

especially when western mysticism is so interesting & overlooked

jf

 

[Aikicomp]

There was a great website that expose dhow some of these tricks were done, but it no longer exists. I'll try to do my best with just words. Simply put...unliftable body usually works like this...

Person A will have one or two people (the bigger the better) lift them. They do this no problem. Then the perosn "grounds" their ki/chi/qi. Then the the lifters struggle to lift that person as if they have becom eheavy.

In the one person version, the lift is done at the elbows. The liftee bends there arms at their sides and the lifter puishes up form beneath at the liftee's elbows. For the successful lift, the liftee remains stiff and the elbows are pointing straight down. On the unsuccessful lift, the liftee shifts the elbows forward slighlty (about a half inch). This is enough to shift the center of gravity forward slightly. Second they relax and this makes them more unwieldy (like a sack of potatoes).

I learned it where the lifter picks the liftee up by the armpits from the front (face to face) and we stay relaxed in both no shifting, moving or adjusting of the body. Just we allow them to lift us (no Ki)...then we don't (flowing Ki). How would you explain that?

It's a similar idea with the two person lift. the lifters are on either side of the liftee, lifting at the arms. When the liftee is stiff and the arms are closer to the body, the lift goes well. By moving the arms out slightly (redirecting the force in a more inward direction instead of straight up), relaxing, and also keeping the two lifters from lifting "into" each other (one arm slightly forward, the other slightly backward)...th ebig strong guys actually interfere with each other and their strength and directions of force cancel each other out. What happens is they skitter backwards and forward around the floor never quite lifting thing liftee.

Again, with the two man lift we are grabbed under the armipts, both men lift straight up and we just relax, no shifting, no moving or adjusting of the body. We just don't allow them to lift us up. We allow them to lift us (no Ki)...then we don't (flowing Ki). How do you explain that?

Similar trick with the unbendable arm (changing the angle of the arm just slightly so as to redirect force downward instead of inward).

When we do the two person unbendable arm we put our wrists on the bender's shoulders (arms extended), palm up and elbow down with our hands open. The benders then put their two hands palm down one hand on top of the other in the elbow joints and proceed to bend the bendee's arm at the elbow (both people pulling down at the same time) Again, we just relax, no shifting, no moving or adjusting of the body. How would you explain that?

It's actually great stuff...good to learn these subtle manipulations to manage physical force. Usefulo in a martial sense so far as I'm concerned...but too often lost in the mystical mumbo jumbo to be of real use. The real lessons of proper structure get lost.

No magic, just physics.


Peace,
Erik

It's kind of hard typing the situations and getting a clear idea of what is done, I hope I can relay it to you. If not I'm sorry.

Here is another excercise we do. It's called the ring. We hold our index finger and thumb together (forming a ring, duh!) with the other three fingers extended holding the hand horizontal to the ground palm down. The person (with the index finger of each hand grabs inside the "ring" and tries to pull the "ring" open with his two hands. How would you explain that?

How can I stop you from opening my "ring" with your two arms pulling against my two fingers using physics? Are not your two arms stronger than my two fingers?

Again, we just relax, no shifting, no moving or adjusting of the body. Just relaxing and flowing Ki. BTW, this can also be done with both hands and two people.

When I first learned how to apply Ki (that's what my teacher called it, probably during the time he studied Aikido) he wanted to de-mystify the metaphysical aspect of it and explained that it is an energy that is all around us and we just "tap" into it using our minds.


Michael

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

So true. I can descibe what is happening with great precision. I cannot explain what is happening. So I am open to 'better educating' myself if there is anybody that can provide an intelligent explanation that fits the facts. I certainly wouldn't want to rely on 'eastern mysticism'. :shrug:

Hey, just realized you were an Australian like me. I'm always open to new information, so if you train near my area maybe I could go and experience this Chi for myself. I'm based in Brisbane. And no don't worry, I'm not one of those BullShido guys looking for a fight.

 

[bluekey88]

Sorry but this has nothing to do with Cartesian Dualism. That is a totally spiritual concept of body and soul (or mind) dating back thousands of years, before being linked to Descartes in the 1600s. Dualism itself has many different propositions. In fact if you wanted to follow the track of 'property dualism' it does allow that mental causes can produce material effects, and vice-versa. This is called 'interactionism' but I digress.

Mind over matter may have some relevence although in this concept it is more mind over mind.

As to:



So true. I can descibe what is happening with great precision. I cannot explain what is happening. So I am open to 'better educating' myself if there is anybody that can provide an intelligent explanation that fits the facts. I certainly wouldn't want to rely on 'eastern mysticism'. :shrug:

The fact is, there isn't mind/spirit/soul seperate from the physical body. One cannot be over the other as there isn't one and the other...jsut different facets of the same system. Saying different is, in fact, a form of dualism. Inj the end, the energyu that permeates the univers is the universe. I canot tap into that and manipulate...except in the standard ways in wich oine physical nody interacts with other physical bodies...bound by the physics.

As to the ring trick, seen that one too...as near as I can figure, this is how it works. Like other physicval tricks, it's all about relaxation, structure and force manipulation. It's all in how you position your fingers such that the pulling force is redirected into a pushing force in the hand. You manipulate the angles of the small joints of the the thumb and finger to attain this. Stay relaxed and your muscles don't have to fight each other. This isn't ki or special energy....just plain newtonian physics. Got anything else?

to Aikicomp -- I can't explain exactly what is happening in your examples without seeing a video. I'm still willign to bet that when you relax there is a slight shift in the center of gravity. Also, ini every example you menton relaxation...a relaxed person in much more awkward and difficult to move than a stiff person. I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. In the end, these types of tricks are more about structure...and force redirection within that structure than they are about metaphysical forces.

Again, there are valuabel martial lessons to be learned from such excercises, but they are hardly evidence of the physical existence of ki.

Peace,
Erik