The Secret Societies and the Founding Fathers

[granfire]

Ever since 'The DaVinci Code' people are tripping over themselves to find 'hidden meanings' in the symbols of our country.

Yes, it is true, a considerable number of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Freemasons, but seeing their mark on everything is plain silly.

The number 13 - oh wonders - is in regard of the original 13 states.
Pyramids? Well, they were en vogue in the out going 18th century.
The eye? A popular symbol of deity, also at the time....


My Husband is mason.
While I find those shows on TV amusing, he gets offended a bit.

 

[Big Don]

My cousin is a mason, he'll tell you fantastic stories about how he and "his people" control the world. It amuses the hell out of him. But, then, for kicks, he tells people the moon landing never happened because it amuses him.

 

[CanuckMA]

Oh please. It's a well known fact that my people control the world.

 

[Sukerkin]

I think why the Mason's cause so much interest and speculation is that it is a layered secret(ish) society.

The layer that most people know about is essentially a 'brotherhood' of decent, socially minded, business/professional people who work to help each other out when they can and do some quiet good works in the background.

That is entirely laudible i.e. to do good at your own expense and not seek 'favour' for it.

There are several layers beyond that 'public face' tho' and it is those that are 'credited' with wielding such huge influence and power. It may well be true, in the mature First World nations at any rate, for they have had many centuries to manipulate and manoever.

Whether it is sinister or not is a whole other matter - what it is for sure is human nature. Helping your fellows achieve success and maybe high office is something that it is natural for us to do as a social creature.

 

[Empty Hands]

It basically doesn't even matter anymore. The Fraternal societies are dying. Their membership is aging at an incredible rate, the young are not joining. I've met exactly one mason under the age of 40 in my life, all of the rest of them are in their middle 50's now or older. It is a bit sad, some of these societies have histories measured in the centuries.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

First of all, it's 'freemason' and not 'mason'. Stone masons are masons. Freemasons are members of various forms of masonry collectively known as 'speculative' masonry. They are very different things. If one wishes to use the term 'mason' instead of 'freemason', then one should prepend it with 'speculative' to differentiate between that and practical masonry, which is what a stone mason engages in.

Second, Sukerkin is quite correct; the various secret societies have always been with us, are still with us, and they are designed to be layered like the chambers of a nautilus shell. That is, initiates are told one thing, novices another, journeymen yet another, and masters are told another still. And there may not be an 'ultimate' master level; each time a person thinks they have risen to the top of their particular society they may (or may not) be informed at some point that there is yet another layer, which contains its own layers of secrets and differing facts. So what the average Blue Lodge freemason thinks about what freemasons do is most likely quite different from what a Master freemason thinks, and some may smile benevolently when a 33rd Degree speaks as if he possesses the keys to the kingdom in terms of secrets, knowing that 33rd degree is not even the beginning of the hierarchy of freemasonry, let alone the top.

Secret societies exist. How much they actually control or influence is a matter of conjecture; if it could be definitively stated, they'd hardly be 'secret' anymore. And it is well-known that secret societies often plant false information about their 'secrets' intentionally; as honeypots or as chaff or even to make themselves seem more attractive to would-be recruits. So 'revealed secrets' are most likely nothing of the sort.

And excellent book on secret societies is "A History Of Secret Societies," by Arkon Daraul. It's out of print, but available used quite inexpensively as a paperback. It's not breathless or conspiracy-laden, but a rather interesting look at the history of secret societies. Though somewhat dated, not that much has changed with regard to secret societies. There are no new Ordo Templi Orientis or Astrum Argentum societies springing up, for example. Unless, of course, they're secret...hehehehe.

Frankly, I can tell anyone who is interested that the world is run by the Church of the SubGenius. Cthulhu told me so.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It basically doesn't even matter anymore. The Fraternal societies are dying. Their membership is aging at an incredible rate, the young are not joining. I've met exactly one mason under the age of 40 in my life, all of the rest of them are in their middle 50's now or older. It is a bit sad, some of these societies have histories measured in the centuries.

They just want you to THINK they're dying off!

Bwahahahaha!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ever since 'The DaVinci Code' people are tripping over themselves to find 'hidden meanings' in the symbols of our country.

Yes, it is true, a considerable number of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Freemasons, but seeing their mark on everything is plain silly.

The number 13 - oh wonders - is in regard of the original 13 states.
Pyramids? Well, they were en vogue in the out going 18th century.
The eye? A popular symbol of deity, also at the time....


My Husband is mason.
While I find those shows on TV amusing, he gets offended a bit.

The problem is that people confuse fact with fiction…especially if you throw actual historical figures and events into your fiction....

As for anyone controlling the world…. Just between you and me…. They only control it….because I allow them to THINK they control it...and it has been this way for centuries :EG:

 

[granfire]

They just want you to THINK they're dying off!

Bwahahahaha!

LOL!

I think the members that do put a face to 'the club' (term of one of the wives) are driven anyhow. If they were members of the he-man woman haters they'd succeed.

A lot of the people who harp on the connection are usually the once that...how shall are put it politely...aren't worth killing.

I mean, it's not hard to join the Freemasons. Ask one to be one, but too many just don't do anything (literally) but complain.

Like so many other groups. the calls from the peanut gallery, finger pointing at those who achieve, naturally with sinister motives. (Probably more projection than anything else)

I find those TV shows interesting though. But I also see how a lot of people take everything there as the absolute truth (must be, it's on TV, right) And after that NOBODY can tell them different.

 

[ballen0351]

Most Freemason lodges have an open house every once and a while I know we are having a statewide open house next month where all lodges will be open to the public for a tour, ask questions, and recruitment drive.
I'm in my 30's and Im a Mason there are quite a few 30 and 40 yr olds in my area. I joined simply because a few years ago my little niece needed a medical procedure that was quite costly and my sister is quite poor. They sent my niece to the Shriners hospital which is one of the best children's hospital in the area and she received top notch care all at no cost to her. So I looked into the Shriners to see what they were all about and discovered the Freemasons and I asked to join. Its not some big crazy secret you want to be a Freemason and learn what its about all you have to do is ask.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Most Freemason lodges have an open house every once and a while I know we are having a statewide open house next month where all lodges will be open to the public for a tour, ask questions, and recruitment drive.
I'm in my 30's and Im a Mason there are quite a few 30 and 40 yr olds in my area. I joined simply because a few years ago my little niece needed a medical procedure that was quite costly and my sister is quite poor. They sent my niece to the Shriners hospital which is one of the best children's hospital in the area and she received top notch care all at no cost to her. So I looked into the Shriners to see what they were all about and discovered the Freemasons and I asked to join. Its not some big crazy secret you want to be a Freemason and learn what its about all you have to do is ask.

It is true that all Shriners are Freemasons. It is also true that Shriners do good works (as do Freemasons, and other 'secret societies'). But just because there is an open house, and just because a person can join, does not mean that they do not have secrets that the average citizen, and the average freemason, is not aware of.

 

[ballen0351]

It is true that all Shriners are Freemasons. It is also true that Shriners do good works (as do Freemasons, and other 'secret societies'). But just because there is an open house, and just because a person can join, does not mean that they do not have secrets that the average citizen, and the average freemason, is not aware of.

1 way to find out Bill all you need to do is Ask

 

[Bill Mattocks]

1 way to find out Bill all you need to do is Ask

Actually that's not quite accurate. I can ask, and I may get an answer. And the answer may be correct, or it may be deceptive. Or, and I consider this more likely, the person answering may give an answer that they believe is correct, but it is not.

As I said, mystery cults (or secret societies) usually operate in a nautilus-like fashion. You may be a freemason and rise through the ranks to 33rd degree and believe you are in possession of all the secrets and information about the freemasons, but there may be levels above you which believe other things entirely. Unless you are inducted into those higher levels, you'll never know; so you'll give answers that you believe are true, but they may not be true. Make sense?

It's the same way terrorist cells work, by the way (and no, I am not comparing freemasons with terrorists). A cell member knows who his leader is. The leader knows who the group leader is. But the group leader knows more than the people who operate under him, and his leaders know more than that, and so one. The low-level members do not know who the top-level members are, by design. They may even be duped into thinking that the person they report to is the top of the heap, but that person also has a boss, who may also have a boss, and so on. Each person thinks they are one rung from the top, when in fact the hierarchy goes up and up and up; and the group's purpose may be radically different at the top than it is at the bottom. People in the trenches of terrorist cells may think they are fighting for something that is not at all what the real strategic goals of the group are.

So no, I do not think I can 'just ask' and get an accurate answer. Accurate according to the person I ask, perhaps. But the real truth and nothing but the truth? Secret societies do not work that way, so no.

 

[ballen0351]

Actually that's not quite accurate. I can ask, and I may get an answer. And the answer may be correct, or it may be deceptive. Or, and I consider this more likely, the person answering may give an answer that they believe is correct, but it is not.

As I said, mystery cults (or secret societies) usually operate in a nautilus-like fashion. You may be a freemason and rise through the ranks to 33rd degree and believe you are in possession of all the secrets and information about the freemasons, but there may be levels above you which believe other things entirely. Unless you are inducted into those higher levels, you'll never know; so you'll give answers that you believe are true, but they may not be true. Make sense?

It's the same way terrorist cells work, by the way (and no, I am not comparing freemasons with terrorists). A cell member knows who his leader is. The leader knows who the group leader is. But the group leader knows more than the people who operate under him, and his leaders know more than that, and so one. The low-level members do not know who the top-level members are, by design. They may even be duped into thinking that the person they report to is the top of the heap, but that person also has a boss, who may also have a boss, and so on. Each person thinks they are one rung from the top, when in fact the hierarchy goes up and up and up; and the group's purpose may be radically different at the top than it is at the bottom. People in the trenches of terrorist cells may think they are fighting for something that is not at all what the real strategic goals of the group are.

So no, I do not think I can 'just ask' and get an accurate answer. Accurate according to the person I ask, perhaps. But the real truth and nothing but the truth? Secret societies do not work that way, so no.

So because you read in a book or saw on TV that the answer will be a lie then it has to be a Lie no matter what. Even if it is just a simple group of men that get together to help the community you will never believe it because you once heard it was a top secret society that will never tell you the truth? Sometimes a duck is just a duck.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So because you read in a book or saw on TV that the answer will be a lie then it has to be a Lie no matter what. Even if it is just a simple group of men that get together to help the community you will never believe it because you once heard it was a top secret society that will never tell you the truth? Sometimes a duck is just a duck.

Sometimes a duck is just a duck, yes. And those who know me know that I am paranoid, but not a willing victim of every conspiracy theory that comes floating down the pike. All I am stating is a fact - I cannot 'know' what the truth is by asking a member. I can only take their word for it.

And knowing the history of secret societies - not novels, not movies, not TV shows, but actual research of the history of the societies themselves, I am aware that mystery cults have some common facets, including concealing higher-order secrets from lower-level members until such time as those members are advanced into higher ranks, if they ever are.

You might be surprised to know that I am a member of a couple of fraternal orders myself. I know what I've been told, but what I do not know, and cannot know, is what I have not been told.

I suggest reading the book "A History of Secret Societies" if you wish learn more about the history of such societies and learn more about the ways they are and were similar and different.

And just because a society has secrets and wheels within wheels that lower-level members do not know about does not mean they are nefarious, evil, plotting to take over the world, or that they control much of anything. It just means that there is more to them than meets the eye. That's where the conspiracy buffs and myself part company. If you ask me if the Illuminati exists, for example, I'll agree that they might in one form or another. If you ask me if they control the world, I'll say I suspect they'd like to, but I sincerely doubt that they do. Or the Bilderbergers, or the Trilateral Commission, or the etc, etc, etc. I am no believer in big conspiracies, simply because people are not that good at keeping secrets.

 

[granfire]

Most Freemason lodges have an open house every once and a while I know we are having a statewide open house next month where all lodges will be open to the public for a tour, ask questions, and recruitment drive.
I'm in my 30's and Im a Mason there are quite a few 30 and 40 yr olds in my area. I joined simply because a few years ago my little niece needed a medical procedure that was quite costly and my sister is quite poor. They sent my niece to the Shriners hospital which is one of the best children's hospital in the area and she received top notch care all at no cost to her. So I looked into the Shriners to see what they were all about and discovered the Freemasons and I asked to join. Its not some big crazy secret you want to be a Freemason and learn what its about all you have to do is ask.

Damn, you keep that up and I might have to put you on my buddy list! :EEK:

 

[granfire]

It is true that all Shriners are Freemasons. It is also true that Shriners do good works (as do Freemasons, and other 'secret societies'). But just because there is an open house, and just because a person can join, does not mean that they do not have secrets that the average citizen, and the average freemason, is not aware of.

If you are thinking in terms of hidden skulls and bones....no.

If you are thinking in terms of internal stuff, yes. Not unlike any coproration, football club...

The sad thing is that the average citizen may apply to join. But most just choose to complain.

Also, you overlooked one important thing:

Mason's motto: Ask one to be one.

They may not approach you, you have to communicate the desire to join.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If you are thinking in terms of hidden skulls and bones....no.

If you are thinking in terms of internal stuff, yes. Not unlike any coproration, football club...

The sad thing is that the average citizen may apply to join. But most just choose to complain.

Again, all I can do is take your word for it. And the history of secret societies is such that the average member does not know all the secrets of the organization. So you can tell me the truth from your point of view and based on your knowledge and still be incorrect. This is how secrets get kept - the lower-ranking members don't know them - or even that they are lower-ranking members.

 

[ballen0351]

Again, all I can do is take your word for it. And the history of secret societies is such that the average member does not know all the secrets of the organization. So you can tell me the truth from your point of view and based on your knowledge and still be incorrect. This is how secrets get kept - the lower-ranking members don't know them - or even that they are lower-ranking members.

I guess when the term secret society is used it conjures up visions of human sacrifice, puppet govt's, plots to rule the world ect. If your simply saying the internal workings of the organization are not know to the public then yes there are certain things done during meetings and initiations that are not known to the pubilc in general and they are mainly done out of respect of the past. One could also say the Martial Arts are a secret society as well because things are done that the general public might not understand or know why its done.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I guess when the term secret society is used it conjures up visions of human sacrifice, puppet govt's, plots to rule the world ect.

It may conjure up those visions for some, but for me, it simply means a society which has secrets which it keeps from the uninitiated. I am quite aware of such things, I am under oath myself. None of the secrets I keep are at all interesting; but I still can't tell you what they are.

If your simply saying the internal workings of the organization are not know to the public then yes there are certain things done during meetings and initiations that are not known to the pubilc in general and they are mainly done out of respect of the past. One could also say the Martial Arts are a secret society as well because things are done that the general public might not understand or know why its done.

Yes, that is true. And some martial arts organizations have more secrecy to them than others.

But I am also referring to what has been referred to as a 'mystery cult', and this is not quite the same as a secret self-defense technique taught only to certain students. Secret societies historically do have not just secrets that the membership is sworn not to divulge, but also secrets as to their structure, membership, hierarchy, purpose, and methods. Again, that does not make them evil or nefarious, nor does it even mean they are particularly effective at the things they wish to be effective at; it just means that they practice such things.

You seem not to want to or be able to recognize that you may not possess all the secrets of your Lodge. Perhaps you do, and there is nothing more to it than you say there is; or perhaps you know more than you are saying and are trying to deflect my comments. Or perhaps you think you know and are being duped yourself. I accuse you of nothing; I merely note that I do not know what I do not know, and you can earnestly explain all you wish. I may choose to believe you, but it does not constitute proof.

This is the nature of a true secret society; it has layers which contain more secrets as the layers are peeled back, and most members are never aware that they even exist. I don't profess to know what secrets the Freemasons possess; nor how many layers there are to their particular onion. I only know that historically, secret societies such as theirs have more than their rank-and-file membership realize.

For the record, I doubt the real secrets are all that earth-shattering; I even doubt in many cases that they are true; just because something is secret does not make it correct, nor does it make it important to anyone outside the organization. It just makes it secret.