The Remains of Sodom & Gomorrah Found

[elder999]

Get back to me when you're a mathematician, elder999! Top of the heap, baby!

Dude-I make electricity from the sun or the atom..., set machines in motion...... smash particles to make others, and play with some of the most powerful forces known.......I get mathematicians to check my math, or do my grunt calculations......I may even need them for that, but I make things, and make them move.....Oh, and I probably make more........Top of the heap baby! :lol:

 

[arnisador]

set machines in motion......

hHey--mathematically, I can set them in perpetual motion. Beat that!

 

[Carol]

I managed to not fall asleep in CHON...er...I mean...organic chemistry...

 

[grumpywolfman]

elder999,

The video below is of somebody lighting some of the brimstone they picked up from the site.

[video=youtube_share;iGdZd4BQhRk]http://youtu.be/iGdZd4BQhRk[/video]

 

[grumpywolfman]

Oh sure pull the PhD physicist on us,,I will have you know I have a minor in....aaa... physical Geography....and ummm...well...we mostly studied..aaaa...Fluvial geomorphology... in the geology part of the minor...and....aaa....nevermind :uhyeah:

However, and not that you need the backup.... but as far as my feeble mind can remember.... on sulfur.... you are correct sir

Hmm... your link to on the sulfur is interesting. I'll have to do some research to see if there was ever salt domes present in that region (which will probably be more effort than Dr. Puke would be willing to offer).

 

[CanuckMA]

set machines in motion

So you're George Jetson then.

 

[elder999]

elder999,The video below is of somebody lighting some of the brimstone they picked up from the site.[video=youtube_share;iGdZd4BQhRk]http://youtu.be/iGdZd4BQhRk[/video]

KwLet me get this straight: I'm supposed to be impressed because sulfur burns?? :lfao: just :lfao:

 

[elder999]

KwLet me get this straight: I'm supposed to be impressed because sulfur burns?? :lfao: just :lfao:

I mean, you do know what "brimstone" means, right:lfao: "Burnstone?:lfao:...Ya know what else burns?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

[video=youtube_share;oG3QsisQrkc]http://youtu.be/oG3QsisQrkc[/video]

PeaceWithGod.net

I watched the video from beginning to end. Well produced, not cheesy, and interesting, but also likely only to be watched by people who already believe in the existence of Sodom & Gomorah and who are already believers of some stripe of Christianity.

Of course, I need no convicing of the existence of Sodom and Gomorah. I also believe that Atlantis was an historical city as well (another city consumed by divine wrath which archaeologists have occasionally claimed to have found).

Presumably, the end portion regarding giving one's life to Christ is the point of your posting this. As this isn't really an invitation to discuss an archaeological find, but an attempt at evalgelization, let's skip past the debate about whether or not Wyatt really found Sodom (I'll give it to him. I'll even go so far as to say I'm reasonably swayed that he really was standing in a city cosnumed by fire and brimstone rained down from the heavens) and cut to the chase.

The real question is this: how do you reconcile the inexhaustable patience and love of God with the destruction of a city and all of its inhabitants, including children to young to be engaged in whatever wickedness the cities adult inhabitants were guilty of?

How do you reconcile the various accounts of God in the pentatuch with the portrayal of God in the NT? Even within Genesis, you see a variations in the writing and clearly have more than one story by more than one author combined into a complete book. You even have the shift from El to Yahweh along with accompanying shifts in personality. Preaching the Gospel from the OT is, in my personal opinion, highly problematic.

If one cannot evangelize based upon Jesus message of love one another, love your neigbor, love your enemy, and abundant life, throwing in the OT isn't going to help.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I managed to not fall asleep in CHON...er...I mean...organic chemistry...

My brain broke in Calc III and Linear Algerbra

 

[grumpywolfman]

I watched the video from beginning to end. Well produced, not cheesy, and interesting, but also likely only to be watched by people who already believe in the existence of Sodom & Gomorah and who are already believers of some stripe of Christianity.

Of course, I need no convicing of the existence of Sodom and Gomorah. I also believe that Atlantis was an historical city as well (another city consumed by divine wrath which archaeologists have occasionally claimed to have found).

Presumably, the end portion regarding giving one's life to Christ is the point of your posting this. As this isn't really an invitation to discuss an archaeological find, but an attempt at evalgelization, let's skip past the debate about whether or not Wyatt really found Sodom (I'll give it to him. I'll even go so far as to say I'm reasonably swayed that he really was standing in a city cosnumed by fire and brimstone rained down from the heavens) and cut to the chase.

The real question is this: how do you reconcile the inexhaustable patience and love of God with the destruction of a city and all of its inhabitants, including children to young to be engaged in whatever wickedness the cities adult inhabitants were guilty of?

How do you reconcile the various accounts of God in the pentatuch with the portrayal of God in the NT? Even within Genesis, you see a variations in the writing and clearly have more than one story by more than one author combined into a complete book. You even have the shift from El to Yahweh along with accompanying shifts in personality. Preaching the Gospel from the OT is, in my personal opinion, highly problematic.

If one cannot evangelize based upon Jesus message of love one another, love your neighbor, love your enemy, and abundant life, throwing in the OT isn't going to help.

Thank you for watching the video. I think that you are actually the first person to actively participate.

About the video: These definitely look like destroyed cities in my opinion. It's amazing to me how intense the heat must have been to cause this - buildings and bones not covered in ash, but made into ash. I think that it's a fair description to say that the burning sulfur balls (brimstone) appear to have rained down upon the city. Xue's link to a description of sulfur leads to an interesting question - could the sulfur have come from some underground salt mound? Could volcanic activity have caused the mounds to erupt and cause all of this destruction? Of course this would take more field research and acquiring a more in depth geological survey.

What I find intriguing, is that the location of these cities match the Biblical description, and there is some notable distance between them, and they were destroyed in the same manner at the same time. A counter argument could now be made like elder999 to say that any other religion could claim a divine punishment by their god or goddess too of this tragic, but natural phenomenon.

"So, o.k. grumpywolfman, let's just say (hypothetically) that these are the true cities and there is a God who did this. Why?"

"What did these people do to deserve this punishment? Did God leave this for us to see as an example - even unto the present age? Is there a lesson we are meant to learn? What is required of us to be right with God? Is there a certain way in which He wants us to live?" I believe the answers to these questions can be found within the Bible itself.

Thank you again Daniel, for taking the time to watch the video to draw your own conclusion; of course, you already know mine.

 

[grumpywolfman]

I mean, you do know what "brimstone" means, right:lfao: "Burnstone?:lfao:...Ya know what else burns?View attachment 17835

Let me guess, I self portrait of you at the second coming of Christ?

 

[elder999]

Let me guess, I self portrait of you at the second coming of Christ?

Nah, man-that "Second coming of Christ" was yesterday.....oh, no, wait a minute-it was today.....oops, no-it's tomorrow.

.....in any case, according to just about everything Jesus is recorded as saying, I'm ready-but your science still sucks to the point of virtual nonexistence-which makes it stupid...that burns....:lfao:

 

[The Last Legionary]

irateboo

If this is a big discovery, why doesn't Wikipedia say so? Ron "I'm nucking futz" Wyatt died in August 1999, that is to say 13, I say, 13 years ago.
You would think that if he actually had found it, the rest of the scientific community wouldn't be "wandering the wastelands".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah[h=2]Historicity[/h]The historical existence of Sodom and Gomorrah is still in dispute by archaeologists, as little archaeological evidence has ever been found in the regions where they were supposedly situated. The Bible indicates they were located near the Dead Sea (Genesis 14:1-3, 14:8-10, 34:3).
Strabo states that locals living near Moasada (as opposed to Masada) say that "there were once thirteen inhabited cities in that region of which Sodom was the metropolis". Strabo identifies a limestone and salt hill at the south western tip of the Dead Sea, and Kharbet Usdum ruins nearby as the site of biblical Sodom.[SUP][8][/SUP]
Archibald Sayce translated an Akkadian poem describing cities that were destroyed in a rain of fire, written from the view of a person who escaped the destruction; the names of the cities are not given.[SUP][9][/SUP] However, Sayce later mentions that the story more closely resembles the doom of Sennacherib's host.[SUP][10][/SUP]
In 1976 Giovanni Pettinato claimed that a cuneiform tablet that had been found in the newly discovered library at Ebla contained the names of all five of the cities of the plain (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela), listed in the same order as in Genesis. The names si-da-mu [TM.76.G.524] and ì-ma-ar [TM.75.G.1570 and TM.75.G.2233] were identified as representing Sodom and Gomorrah, which gained some acceptance at the time.[SUP][11][/SUP] However, Alfonso Archi states that, judging from the surrounding city names in the cuneiform list, si-da-mu lies in northern Syria and not near the Dead Sea, and ì-ma-ar is a variant of ì-mar, known to represent Emar, an ancient city located near Ebla.[SUP][12][/SUP] William Shea points out in 1983 that on the 'Eblaite Geographical Atlas' [TM.75.G.2231], ad-mu-ut and sa-dam are good readings by Pettinato and correspond to Admah and Sodom, and they are contained in a list of cities that traces a route along the shores of, or quite possibly within the Dead Sea, whose position may have since shifted along its fault.[SUP][13][/SUP] Today, the scientific consensus is reported as being that "Ebla has no bearing on ... Sodom and Gomorra."[SUP][14][/SUP]
If the cities actually existed, they might have been destroyed as the result of a natural cataclysm. Geologists confirmed that no volcanic activity occurred within 4,000 years.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] Others claim that Dead Sea was devastated by an earthquake between 1900 and 2100 B.C.E., which could have unleashed showers of steaming tar.[SUP][15][/SUP] It is possible that the towns were destroyed by an earthquake in the region, especially if the towns lay along a major fault, the Jordan Rift Valley. However, there is a lack of contemporary accounts of seismic activity within the necessary timeframe to corroborate this theory.[SUP][16][/SUP]
Possible candidates for Sodom or Gomorrah are the sites discovered or visited by Walter E. Rast and R. Thomas Schaub in 1973, including Bab edh-Dhra, which was originally excavated in 1965 by archaeologist Paul Lapp, only to have his work continued by Rast and Schaub following his death by accidental drowning in the waters off of Cyprus in 1970. Other possibilities also include Numeira, es-Safi, Feifeh and Khanazir, which were also visited by Schaub and Rast. All sites were located near the Dead Sea, with evidence of burning and traces of sulfur.[SUP][17][/SUP][SUP][18][/SUP] Archaeological remains excavated from Bab edh-Dhra are currently displayed in Karak Archaeological Museum (Karak Castle) and Amman Citadel Museum.
Another possible candidate for Sodom is the Tall el-Hammam dig site which began in 2006 under the direction of Steven Collins. Tall el-Hammam is located in the southern Jordan river valley approximately 14 kilometers Northeast of the Dead Sea, and seemingly fitting the Bible descriptions of the lands of Sodom. The ongoing dig is a result of joint cooperation between Trinity South Western University and the Department of Antiquities of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.[SUP][19][/SUP] The site is 36 hectares, while the footprint size of general settlement extends beyond this—well over 40 hectares. This size puts Tall el-Hammam as one of the largest Bronze sites that has been discovered in Jordan. Analysis of the findings indicates that the site was occupied from the Chalcolithic period on up the Iron Age (however there may likely be period gaps as well, along with evidences of glazed artifacts—such as pottery and rocks, and destruction). In addition there is evidence of Hellenistic, Eastern Roman, and Byzantine occupation on the site.[SUP][20][/SUP]
The Jewish historian Josephus identifies the Dead Sea in geographic proximity to the ancient biblical city of Sodom. However, he refers to the lake by its Greek name, Asphaltites.[SUP][21][/SUP]

Now, you're here pushing this discredited asshat's BS so hard, one might start to think that you were him. Except he's dead. In a box. Rotting in to worm food and plant chow. So, unless his buttbox was wired, and hell has high speed, you ain't him buckyo. What you are though smells of agenda troll. I'd say spammer, but the only thing you're pushing is crappy video, and that's not against the rules. I mean, if it were, we'd lose half the TKD folks. iratehi: So really, what is your game? iratewhe

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thank you for watching the video. I think that you are actually the first person to actively participate.

You're welcome.

About the video: These definitely look like destroyed cities in my opinion.

Some of it certainly had the look of ashen remains of man made structures. Some of it, though was a bit of a reach. Where he was seeing a sphinx, I saw a big mound of .... something. On the other hand, there are some really interesting rock formations in the American southwest where a case could be made that such things are man made and do not occur in other parts of the country, so I got the feeling that at least some of his conclusions were being drawn based more on what he wanted to see than what may have actually been there. But the larger objects certainly had the appearance of structural remains, so I'm fine giving him the nod.

In the end though, I'm not a geologist, archaeologist, nor an historian, and I have so little vested interest in the remains of Sodom that my giving him the nod is meaningless. I already believe that the cities existed, they have to have been somewhere, and since nobody else seems to have found them, his proposed location is as good as any other.

It's amazing to me how intense the heat must have been to cause this - buildings and bones not covered in ash, but made into ash. I think that it's a fair description to say that the burning sulfur balls (brimstone) appear to have rained down upon the city. Xue's link to a description of sulfur leads to an interesting question - could the sulfur have come from some underground salt mound? Could volcanic activity have caused the mounds to erupt and cause all of this destruction? Of course this would take more field research and acquiring a more in depth geological survey.

What I find intriguing, is that the location of these cities match the Biblical description, and there is some notable distance between them, and they were destroyed in the same manner at the same time. A counter argument could now be made like elder999 to say that any other religion could claim a divine punishment by their god or goddess too of this tragic, but natural phenomenon.

Have you ever considered that Jesus' heavenly father was the same being that was worshipped as Jupiter, which actually means 'heavenly father,' but seen through a Jewish lens and either transformed into or conflated with a monotheistic god? The Hebrew god went through changes in portrayal in the OT. He went from El to Yahweh. El had a wife, Asherah (also called Astarte) who was worshiped well into the prophetic period, including by King Solomon (this is recorded in 1 Kings 11:5). According to the Biblical record, the Israelites did essentially what the US government did; left a land where their freedoms were curtailed and entered a land where their freedoms were not, displaced the native cultures, virtually wiped them out, and demonized their beliefs. The difference was that the Caananite religion was not just that of the Caananites, but the basis of that of the Israelites religion as well (El is the same as Baal).

"So, o.k. grumpywolfman, let's just say (hypothetically) that these are the true cities and there is a God who did this. Why?"

"What did these people do to deserve this punishment? Did God leave this for us to see as an example - even unto the present age? Is there a lesson we are meant to learn? What is required of us to be right with God? Is there a certain way in which He wants us to live?" I believe the answers to these questions can be found within the Bible itself.

There is no explanation given that would satisfy my question about why every single living being in five cities had to perish. All women and children? I'm sorry, but the idea of a three year old rating vaporization defies not only any secular notion of morals and justice, but also defies notions of morals and justice recorded in other parts of the Bible.

Compare the account of Sodom and Gomorah to 2Peter 3:9, where Peter says "The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent."

Is this really the same guy??

God who destroyed Sodom and Gomorah, killed the wife of the one righteous man he found just for taking a backward glance, ordered the genocide of the Caananites excepting the women (so that they could be raped), gave Moses a law that called for death by stoning for even some fairly trivial offenses, and burned up his own priest's son because he monkeyed around with the gold box that contained a couple of stone tablets cannot be the same god portrayed in the NT, or in certain parts of the OT.

Either that or God is being misrepresented in part of or all of the Bible. The god who did this is definitely not the God that I know through Jesus.

Also, different parts of the Bible portray different morals and ethics. This makes sense, as it is a collection of history, mythologized history, and myth spanning hundreds of years. Morals and ethics in the US have changed radically in just the last century.

The catch is that if the books are literally penned by God using human pens, God should always be portrayed the same. The Bible states that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but the Bible does not portray God in that manner.

Paul said that "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right (New Living Translation)," but it does not say that all scripture is literal or even inerrant. All scripture is inspired by God because all scripture is written about God. Inspiration is inspiration. Biblical authors were inspired by God. Raphael was inspired by beautiful nude women. Go figure.

Incidentally, at the point that Paul said this, the Gospels hadn't been penned and the various letters of himself, Peter, James, Jude, John, and whoever wrote the letter to the Hebrews were not scripture. The only scripture was the OT, which the apostles were already saying new non-Jewish believers did not have to conform to (Council of Jerusalem AD 50).

So yes, scripture is useful to teach us what is right and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. Just keep in mind that when Paul said this, it was the first century, and that Mosaic law was penned hundreds of years prior to that and served as the legal basis for a nomadic people who wandered the desert. I doubt that it was particularly unusual in its day.

Thank you again Daniel, for taking the time to watch the video to draw your own conclusion; of course, you already know mine.

Yes, but the accuracy of Ron Wyatt's find honestly of little importance. Clearly, it is being used to undergird an evengelical tool, not to further archaeology.

I hope that my response above does not come off as combative or disrespectful, as that is not my intent.

 

[cdunn]

Peer review, please?

Purely technically, a simple lab result isn't quite subject to peer review - It is, however, subject to repetition. We also look to the lab's accreditation and soundness of methodology. Now, Galbraith is accredited for several methods that would be well suited to sulfur analysis - And can probably be reasonably trusted to get the 98% right. I would want to see the actual report from them, however.

What's wrong, deeply, and on the face of it, however, and -is- subject to peer review, is what our dear Doctor has already covered. Burnstone ain't uncommon.

 

[arnisador]

Purely technically, a simple lab result isn't quite subject to peer review - It is, however, subject to repetition. We also look to the lab's accreditation and soundness of methodology. Now, Galbraith is accredited for several methods that would be well suited to sulfur analysis - And can probably be reasonably trusted to get the 98% right. I would want to see the actual report from them, however.

What's wrong, deeply, and on the face of it, however, and -is- subject to peer review, is what our dear Doctor has already covered. Burnstone ain't uncommon.

Yes, not a knock against the lab.--the interpretation, the totality of the argument for the site being legit., is the big issue. Peer review it!

 

[grumpywolfman]

Compare the account of Sodom and Gomorah to 2Peter 3:9, where Peter says "The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent."

Is this really the same guy??

God who destroyed Sodom and Gomorah, killed the wife of the one righteous man he found just for taking a backward glance, ordered the genocide of the Caananites excepting the women (so that they could be raped), gave Moses a law that called for death by stoning for even some fairly trivial offenses, and burned up his own priest's son because he monkeyed around with the gold box that contained a couple of stone tablets cannot be the same god portrayed in the NT, or in certain parts of the OT.

Either that or God is being misrepresented in part of or all of the Bible. The god who did this is definitely not the God that I know through Jesus.

Thousands of years is very patient in my opinion for the final judgement of all mankind.


"Is this really the same guy??"


"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." ~ Luke 17:26-33 KJV

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." ~ Luke 24:44 KJV

 

[grumpywolfman]

[video=youtube_share;eJlN9jdQFSc]http://youtu.be/eJlN9jdQFSc[/video]

PeaceWithGod.net

 

[arnisador]

Thousands of years is very patient in my opinion for the final judgement of all mankind.

Ragnarok is closer than you think. Are you worthy of going to Valhalla? Accept Thor as your personal lord and savior, wear a hammer pendant around your neck, and kill 3 frost giants to be sure.