The Real Karazenpo

[RevIV]

I have also heard that. But, if the techniques on Mr. Pasare's 60's DVD really are the techniques he was taught by Gascon, then Gascon did make major changes.
I am a Kajukenbo black belt from the John Leoning/Bill Ryusaki lineage, and I do not recognize those forms as the one's being taught by the first generation students of John Leoning, or any Kajukenbo lineage.
They do resemble the Okinawan "Pinan's", which were also taught in many early Tae Kwon Do schools. Another possibility is the fact that Bill Ryusaki was also a shotokan black belt, and Mr. Pasare told me that Bill Ryusaki was a assistant instructor for Gascon at times.

I by all means do not know all the "Okinawan "Pinan's", but the ones that i do know do not look like SGM Pesare's Kats's (called pinan's by SGM Pesare) They do closely resemble the Pinans of Villari's. Heien Sandan, Yondan and Godan are almost identical to 3,4,5 pinan in the Villari lineage. Or were you refering to their Karate snap and power?

 

[John Bishop]

I by all means do not know all the "Okinawan "Pinan's", but the ones that i do know do not look like SGM Pesare's Kats's (called pinan's by SGM Pesare) They do closely resemble the Pinans of Villari's. Heien Sandan, Yondan and Godan are almost identical to 3,4,5 pinan in the Villari lineage. Or were you refering to their Karate snap and power?

Versions of the Okinawan Pinans are done in many systems. The Shotokan versions are called Heian's. The tae kwon do and tang soo do versions keep the Pinan name. All of these versions are very identical in movement, even though there may be slight changes in stance work, snap, power, hand positioning.
One example is the Shotokan Heian's use "back stances" where the Okinawan styles use "cat stances". Some Heian's use a knife hand block, where the Korean versions use a knife hand strike. But either way, 70-80% of the movements, strikes, stances, and blocks are the same from the Okinawan style Pinan, Shotokan Heian, and tae kwon do and tang soo do Pinan.
The Kajukenbo Pinan's (now called Palama Sets) with the exception of #13 do not resemble any of the Pinan's, or Heian's practiced in any of the Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Karazenpo, or Shaolin Kenpo systems.
So like I said before. Either Gascon or Mr. Pesare changed the Kajukenbo forms that John Leoning had taught Gascon.

 

[Danjo]

I by all means do not know all the "Okinawan "Pinan's", but the ones that i do know do not look like SGM Pesare's Kats's (called pinan's by SGM Pesare) They do closely resemble the Pinans of Villari's. Heien Sandan, Yondan and Godan are almost identical to 3,4,5 pinan in the Villari lineage. Or were you refering to their Karate snap and power?

The Pinan kata that Shaolin Kempo have were added to the system by Nick Cerio from a book by Mas Oyama. Villari just kept them.

Pesare's dvd shows them doing "Statue/Stature of the Crane" which was a derivation of Rohai. On the dvd he also says that he added other forms and altered them from their Okinawan/Japanese versions.

The forms he calls Pinans are what SKK calls "Kata". I notice that Pesare talked about training in Bill Ryusaki's back yard, so I wonder how much of his instruction came from him? Certainly the term "Kumite" that Pesare uses probably came from Shotokan, since we don't use it in Kajukenbo.

 

[RevIV]

Versions of the Okinawan Pinans are done in many systems. The Shotokan versions are called Heian's. The tae kwon do and tang soo do versions keep the Pinan name. All of these versions are very identical in movement, even though there may be slight changes in stance work, snap, power, hand positioning.
One example is the Shotokan Heian's use "back stances" where the Okinawan styles use "cat stances". Some Heian's use a knife hand block, where the Korean versions use a knife hand strike. But either way, 70-80% of the movements, strikes, stances, and blocks are the same from the Okinawan style Pinan, Shotokan Heian, and tae kwon do and tang soo do Pinan.
The Kajukenbo Pinan's (now called Palama Sets) with the exception of #13 do not resemble any of the Pinan's, or Heian's practiced in any of the Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Karazenpo, or Shaolin Kenpo systems.
So like I said before. Either Gascon or Mr. Pesare changed the Kajukenbo forms that John Leoning had taught Gascon.

Thank you, I understand that, but i do not understand where you think that SGM Pesare's Kata's resemble the Heian's. I have learned Palama 1 and the flow is very similiar to that of Pesares Kata's. As for Nick Cerio and Villari's Pinans and Cat forms I can see where you are coming from on them looking like Shotokan. Palama 1 has the double elbows back and then step through Left punch, 1 kata (Pesare way) also has this double elbow set. "X" blocks in both forms, sweep techniques both forms.
I may be wrong on this one, but i believe Palama 2 has a lot of scoop blocks in defense to kicks and strikes to the groin - that exact move is at the end of SGM Pesare's 2 Pinan (kata)

 

[John Bishop]

As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a direct student of John Leoning. The Kajukenbo Pinan or Palama Set 3 has no forward or rearward movements, unlike the Pinan 3 in Mr. Pesare's DVD.

Pinan 3 (Leoning lineage)

SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)

 

[RevIV]

As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a direct student of John Leoning. The Kajukenbo Pinan or Palama Set 3 has no forward or rearward movements, unlike the Pinan 3 in Mr. Pesare's DVD.

Pinan 3 (Leoning lineage)

SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)

Thats a nice pinan 3 from Leoning, as for the SKK one-- never seen that version. not even close to ours. I have seen that person do other forms and none of them resemble ours. thank you for the vid. links

 

[John Bishop]

Your welcome. Sometime today I'll put up Pinan 1 and 2 as taught by Sijo Emperado. (For those who don't know, the 14 katas of the Original Method of Kajukenbo were first named "Pinan's", or "Pinions", or "Pinyons" depending on who was pronouncing it. The Filipino Hawaiians normally pronounced it "Pin Yoan". Others pronounced it "pin yun". In 1993 the name was changed to "Palama Sets" since the katas were distinct to the Kajukenbo system. )

 

[John Bishop]

I have seen that person do other forms and none of them resemble ours. thank you for the vid. links

Yea, lot of that going around. Especially from people who have been cross ranked. See it in all systems.

 

[JTKenpo]

As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a direct student of John Leoning. The Kajukenbo Pinan or Palama Set 3 has no forward or rearward movements, unlike the Pinan 3 in Mr. Pesare's DVD.

Pinan 3 (Leoning lineage)

SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)

I don't know what lineage this skk kata 3 is from but it is not what is being done in new england as skk kata 3.

 

[14 Kempo]

I don't know what lineage this skk kata 3 is from but it is not what is being done in new england as skk kata 3.

Nor is it being done that way on the West Coast.

 

[DavidCC]

I have to agree, that "Kata 3" is nothing at all like the SKK that came from Villari line. There is a large group in Eurpoe using the name "Shaolin kempo" that has nothing to do with Villari; that might be the source of it.

I found the kata 3 from USSD here.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PCE_0SgMCMU&feature=related

Still, very different than kajukenbo's

here is USSD pinan 3, which should bear some resemblance to ryukyu's "pinan sandan"
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3inLNXK9pG4

 

[John Bishop]

Kajukenbo Pinan (Palama Set) 1 and 2

 

[RevIV]

Yea, lot of that going around. Especially from people who have been cross ranked. See it in all systems.

Well being a person who has graciously cross ranked in two Kempo systems, I am more than appreciative to being able to see both sides of the story. Helps me develop what I want to teach, kindof like taking the best of many styles and training and teaching a combination of what you feel is best for yourself and students.

 

[John Bishop]

Well being a person who has graciously cross ranked in two Kempo systems, I am more than appreciative to being able to see both sides of the story. Helps me develop what I want to teach, kindof like taking the best of many styles and training and teaching a combination of what you feel is best for yourself and students.

It's all about knowledge. There are people who cross rank and put great effort into learning their new system. There fore becoming better martial artists.
And there are those who just change their patch, make no effort to learn the new system, and just call their old stuff by the new name. That's what hurts a system.

 

[LawDog]

Ref. post #45.
I have never seen that version of SKK Kata #3.

 

[LawDog]

Ref. post #51.
I have seen this version of kata #3 and pinon #3. They were not done well but they do represent the late 70's - 80's versions.

 

[almost a ghost]

As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a
SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)

I've seen this a lot of youtube. You will find a lot of clips labeled "Shaolin Kempo" from Europe and South America that have no relation to the what North America calls Shaolin Kempo. I thought for a while they were just using Shaolin instead of Shorinji, but that theory didn't last long.

 

[marlon]

Kajukenbo Pinan (Palama Set) 1 and 2

thank you for these. the 1 pinian is almost exactly like the one i learned from Costa when i was able to study some kajukenbo here in Montreal,however, his 2 pinian was different. the 2 pinian is very much like Prof. Kimo's 2 pinian. Again, thankl you for sharing

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a direct student of John Leoning. The Kajukenbo Pinan or Palama Set 3 has no forward or rearward movements, unlike the Pinan 3 in Mr. Pesare's DVD.

Pinan 3 (Leoning lineage)

SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)

the Leoning 3 pinian is very similar to Prof.Kimo's but the kata 3 is nothing like i have seen in skk

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Some Grab Arts, free sparring, and Punch Counters (Mostly white belts)

Charles Gaylord and Walter Godin

i find that in the Gaylord and Godin stuff i can see skk fairly clearly. i love the fast and furious finishes (that afre signature of Prof.Chow) we do not do that so much in sk...anymore...
REspectfully,
Marlon