The Real Karazenpo

[Danjo]

Danjo Have you seen both sets of these forms ( I guess if they were truely different than my question becomes mute...)? I'd be interested in your take....As a West Coast Guy you seem to have better opportunity to witness some of our "older" (sorry guys) MA's....

Well, I know what the Kaju forms look like for sure and I've seen many variations of them depending on the instructor and the method being taught. I also have a brown belt in SKK so I know the forms that are being attributed to Gascon. Shuras described some of the combinations to me in their original form that he got from Pesare, and they have been changed drastically. I've seen Namahoe's students at tournaments doing forms and they are basically Kajukenbo and have no resemblence to the SKK forms. Mike Rash demonstrated a form for Chris Geary's guys, and it was pretty much Heian Shodan, so that didn't tell us much one way or the other.

So once again, did Sonny Gas merely teach Kajukenbo, and thus invent nothing?

I'm looking for some evidence that Gascon ever did anything original. From everything I've seen if it was Kaju that he taught, then he certainly had nothing to do with inventing that. And if Pesare only got a small handfull of forms and combos that he significantly altered and then created the rest of the system himself, then HE, not Gascon, is the true "Sijo" of SKK and the like, not Gascon. Gascon would merely have been Pesare's first MA instructor.

I'm more open to being proven wrong than you folks might think. So if there is some evidence that Gascon created an original system somewhere, I'm all for looking at it.

 

[DavidCC]

then HE, not Gascon, is the true "Sijo" of SKK and the like, not Gascon.

I think some of the difficulty in communication here is the blurring of the lines between shaolin kempo and karazenpo.

The "Sijo" (is that a real word?) of Shaolin kempo is Fred Villari. he made it up based on everything he knew at the time. Does some of it resemble Cerio's Kenpo? yes. Does Cerios kenpo resemble Pesare's kenpo? Yes. Does Pesare's kempo resemble karazenpo? That seems to be the Danjo's question here.

It seems to me that karazenpo (today) is an organization, not a style. Was it a style at some time? Yes, I think so, but Sonny Gascon's lineage did not continue, except for Pesare, who was completely out of contact with Gascon for many, many years. Corrigan 'found' Gascon and 'used' him as a lightning rod to draw together the fragmented groups that came from Pesare, Cerio, Villari, & Mattera - unsuccessfully, mostly. Sonny Gascon is just a nice old Hawaiian dude who used to teach kajukenbo until his cousins started squeezing him for the vig - 40 years later I think he was surprised that anyone even knew his name, and now he's so happy to be so much more than just a retired mechanic. Ohana!

This whole branch is nothing but bastards anyway (quit killing kenny!) Get a little rank and go your own way; find some knowledge somewhere, glue it on the side of it, and sign up some students. It's a mutt, heinz 57, frankenstein - always has been, and always will be. We are all our own sijos.

I have Pesare's kempo history DVD and the Kata as executed on that video are not that different than what I am doing today.

 

[RevIV]

Im good with that. SGM Pesare is the founder of Kempo in New England. pretty much no one can take that from him. If he had to modify what he did to make it work for him and his students that is fine. I was told by him that the forms he taught were the ones originally taught to him. I believe Matt was at the same seminar when he said this, and so was Joe Shuras. I will ask him at my next private lesson. Danjo, did you ever get the DVD put out by Pesare circa 60?
Jesse

 

[Flying Crane]

Four forms and a handfull of combinations don't really give much material for an entire system that has so many highly ranked black belts and representatives.

Have you ever seen Wing Chun?

 

[RevIV]

I do not know what Combo's SGM Pesare created or brought back from Gascon, but I just scanned through his circa 60 dvd again real quick and i saw combo's
1,2,3,4,5,9,11,13,15,16,26. Just thought I would share.

 

[Danjo]

I do not know what Combo's SGM Pesare created or brought back from Gascon, but I just scanned through his circa 60 dvd again real quick and i saw combo's
1,2,3,4,5,9,11,13,15,16,26. Just thought I would share.

That dvd goes way beyond 1960 if I recall when I watched it. #4 combo is virtually the same as #6 punch counter in Kaju, so I'm sure he learned that one from Gascon.

 

[Danjo]

Have you ever seen Wing Chun?

Good point.

 

[Danjo]

Here's an example of what Shuras told me about the original #3 combination for instance. Notice how radically Pesare changed what he got from Gascon to what there is now.:

"
Dan, I almost forgot. There was no soft inward block in SK's original #3, that was improvised probaly because of inexpereinced ukes 'following' you with the punch. Now, it seems to have been adopted as standard.

Here's the orignal #3 as taught to George Pesare by Sonny Gascon. You're fighting two people. One in front and one behind. The one behind grabs you arms pinned (bear hug from behind), the one in front punches to your head. You duck and immediately punch, front two knuckle to groin and you're in a kneeling stance, right knee kneeling but not touching the floor. The drop down called 'duck & punch' releases the bear hug and the left elbow shoots to elbow position as a strike to the rear as you simultaneously punch the groin.. You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear. Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin, cross and cover, checking both downed opponents. "Joe""

 

[John Bishop]

Actually, I just had this conversation with George Pesare last month. I had bought his DVD of 60's New England Kempo, and he wanted my critique of what he was doing then.

Mr. Pesare and myself have been corresponding back and forth for 21 years now. Over the years he has sent me many documents (tournament flyers, school flyers, news clippings, etc) from the 60's on.
When I first contacted Mr. Pesare around 1987, he was not aware of who Sonny Gascon had trained under. He simply knew that Gascon was teaching something he called "Karazenpo Goshin Jutsu" and it was a "kenpo" system. And that at times Bill Ryusaki would assist in the classes. He also had not had any contact with Gascon since the mid 60's, and asked if I could put him in touch with "Victor Gascon". I did attempt to do this, but I was informed by my connections in Hawaii that, "Sonny Gascon was no longer involved in the martial arts, and did not want to be associated with the martial arts".

Around 1990-91, I wrote a kenpo article for "Inside Karate" magazine in which I included a kenpo family tree. According to all the people who contacted me as a result of the article, it was the first time anyone in New England had heard that they had a lineage that went back to Kajukenbo.

According to Gascon, Mr. Pesare only trained with him for 2 months. Mr. Pesare has not denied this statement. But I find it hard to believe that he learned 4 katas and a handful of defensive combinations in just 2 months.

Now back to the "1960's Kempo in New England" DVD. When Mr. Pesare asked what I thought about the techniques, I gave him a honest answer. The training methods/workouts appeared to be old school hardcore training, but I was personally disappointed that I didn't see more resemblance to Kajukenbo, since Gascon had trained with John Leoning.
The "original 4 pinans" had no resemblance to the first four Kajukenbo katas, and I only recognized 2 combinations as variations of "Grab Art 15", and "Punch Counter 6".
I also told him that the heavy use of open hand strikes, high kicks, and jumping kicks, was not something common in Kajukenbo. He agreed, and said that much of what is on the DVD was of his design.
You have to realize that even though Mr. Pesare calls his system "Kempo", he trained far more in tae kwon do, judo, and other arts, then he did in Karazenpo.

Whether it sounds good for historical reference or not, nobody today would know who Sonny Gascon was if it wasn't for George Pesare. You can probably count on one hand the number of "Karazenpo" people who do not have a lineage to George Pesare. George Pesare is a exceptional martial artist who has taught and learned various martial arts for close to 50 years. He deserves ALL the credit for the kempo that has originated from New England.

 

[marlon]

Well, I know what the Kaju forms look like for sure and I've seen many variations of them depending on the instructor and the method being taught. I also have a brown belt in SKK so I know the forms that are being attributed to Gascon. Shuras described some of the combinations to me in their original form that he got from Pesare, and they have been changed drastically. I've seen Namahoe's students at tournaments doing forms and they are basically Kajukenbo and have no resemblence to the SKK forms. Mike Rash demonstrated a form for Chris Geary's guys, and it was pretty much Heian Shodan, so that didn't tell us much one way or the other.

So once again, did Sonny Gas merely teach Kajukenbo, and thus invent nothing?

I'm looking for some evidence that Gascon ever did anything original. From everything I've seen if it was Kaju that he taught, then he certainly had nothing to do with inventing that. And if Pesare only got a small handfull of forms and combos that he significantly altered and then created the rest of the system himself, then HE, not Gascon, is the true "Sijo" of SKK and the like, not Gascon. Gascon would merely have been Pesare's first MA instructor.

I'm more open to being proven wrong than you folks might think. So if there is some evidence that Gascon created an original system somewhere, I'm all for looking at it.

from my understanding Sonny Gascone did not create anything new but for political reasons called his system karazempo. I am fine with this. as for the rest of it. I had and have my issues with the way Villari did things however, skk has proven itself to me many times over and against other arts. So as for the rest of it it is history, nothing more and nothing less. I think it is best to look at history only with the intention to move forward.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

Sonny made a guest appearance and performed Karazenpo during a taping of Dick Clark s American Bandstand at recreation park in Burbank California. In this early episode Sonny, Richard “Limo” Tanaka and others can be seen doing all the "original" dances.

If we got a copy of that episode, I guess you could say you were seeing original karazenpo.

 

[Danjo]

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If we got a copy of that episode, I guess you could say you were seeing original karazenpo.

I thought of that too. Unfortunately I have no way of getting that episode unless we knew what date it was broadcast.

 

[John Bishop]

from my understanding Sonny Gascone did not create anything new but for political reasons called his system karazempo. I am fine with this.

Respectfully,
Marlon

I have also heard that. But, if the techniques on Mr. Pasare's 60's DVD really are the techniques he was taught by Gascon, then Gascon did make major changes.
I am a Kajukenbo black belt from the John Leoning/Bill Ryusaki lineage, and I do not recognize those forms as the one's being taught by the first generation students of John Leoning, or any Kajukenbo lineage.
They do resemble the Okinawan "Pinan's", which were also taught in many early Tae Kwon Do schools. Another possibility is the fact that Bill Ryusaki was also a shotokan black belt, and Mr. Pasare told me that Bill Ryusaki was a assistant instructor for Gascon at times.

 

[marlon]

I have also heard that. But, if the techniques on Mr. Pasare's 60's DVD really are the techniques he was taught by Gascon, then Gascon did make major changes.
I am a Kajukenbo black belt from the John Leoning/Bill Ryusaki lineage, and I do not recognize those forms as the one's being taught by the first generation students of John Leoning, or any Kajukenbo lineage.
They do resemble the Okinawan "Pinan's", which were also taught in many early Tae Kwon Do schools. Another possibility is the fact that Bill Ryusaki was also a shotokan black belt, and Mr. Pasare told me that Bill Ryusaki was a assistant instructor for Gascon at times.

in the end ... there seems to be no way to 'know'. My stance is that therre is a connection through Prof. Chow and there are major changes / differences..we are still the same ohana

respectfully,
marlon

 

[John Bishop]

in the end ... there seems to be no way to 'know'. My stance is that therre is a connection through Prof. Chow and there are major changes / differences..we are still the same ohana

respectfully,
marlon

Yes, I would agree that Chow may be one of the keys. I know Leoning students (Al Rimando, Carlos Bunda) who were senior to Gascon, and Leoning students who were there with and after Gascon (Doug Bunda, Rick Kingi). They learned the same techniques and forms from Leoning, and teach them today. And they're not the same as the one's on Mr. Pasare's DVD.
But, like I said Bill Ryusaki had shotokan training, and also trained with Chow's student Bill Chun Sr. And Walter Godin was senior to Gascon and had training from Joe Emperado, and William Chow.
But again, Mr. Pasare trained in tae kwon do long enough to get a black belt, so I'm sure he was adept at the Okinawan Pinan katas.
Another thing to note is Eugene Sedeno was a student of Walter Godin's during his Karazenpo years and after. And all during this time Eugene learned Kajukenbo techniques, not what is on the Pesare DVD. We've got a lot of Kajukenbo film from the 60's, and it's not the same as Pesare's DVD. John Leoning Jr. has film from his fathers first school in Kalihi, and it's not the same as Pesare's DVD.
Peter Robinson, (who is a member here) opened a Leoning branch school in Conn. around 1964. He said when he saw Pesare's students perform at a tournament in New England he did not see what he recognized as techniques Leoning taught. He was surprised because he expected to see simularities, since Gascon had trained under Leoning. When he moved back to California in the 90's he visited GM Rick Kingi's school in L.A., and was happy to see the same techniques that he had learned from Leoning in the late 50's-early 60's.
So somewhere between Gascon and Pesare, there were changes.

 

[DavidCC]

I thought of that too. Unfortunately I have no way of getting that episode unless we knew what date it was broadcast.

After some time searhcing through AB information on the web, I discovered that AB did not move to California until 1964, so it is unlikely that they taped a MA demo in Burbank in 61. I went through a complete episode guide with list of guest stars and interviewees from 61-67 (after SG moved back to Hawaii) and found no mention of it. However there were a good number of episodes that were incomplete on the web site I was viewing so it is difficult to say for sure.

 

[Danjo]

After some time searhcing through AB information on the web, I discovered that AB did not move to California until 1964, so it is unlikely that they taped a MA demo in Burbank in 61. I went through a complete episode guide with list of guest stars and interviewees from 61-67 (after SG moved back to Hawaii) and found no mention of it. However there were a good number of episodes that were incomplete on the web site I was viewing so it is difficult to say for sure.

Plus, who knows if they even have the show correct? Or, perhaps they were confusing Gascon with Leoning or Aleju Reyes again. I remember them claiming that Gascon was asked to be head judge at the Internationals, but it was actually Reyes that had that position. Too many stories with too little corroboration.

 

[marlon]

Yes, I would agree that Chow may be one of the keys. I know Leoning students (Al Rimando, Carlos Bunda) who were senior to Gascon, and Leoning students who were there with and after Gascon (Doug Bunda, Rick Kingi). They learned the same techniques and forms from Leoning, and teach them today. And they're not the same as the one's on Mr. Pasare's DVD.
But, like I said Bill Ryusaki had shotokan training, and also trained with Chow's student Bill Chun Sr. And Walter Godin was senior to Gascon and had training from Joe Emperado, and William Chow.
But again, Mr. Pasare trained in tae kwon do long enough to get a black belt, so I'm sure he was adept at the Okinawan Pinan katas.
Another thing to note is Eugene Sedeno was a student of Walter Godin's during his Karazenpo years and after. And all during this time Eugene learned Kajukenbo techniques, not what is on the Pesare DVD. We've got a lot of Kajukenbo film from the 60's, and it's not the same as Pesare's DVD. John Leoning Jr. has film from his fathers first school in Kalihi, and it's not the same as Pesare's DVD.
Peter Robinson, (who is a member here) opened a Leoning branch school in Conn. around 1964. He said when he saw Pesare's students perform at a tournament in New England he did not see what he recognized as techniques Leoning taught. He was surprised because he expected to see simularities, since Gascon had trained under Leoning. When he moved back to California in the 90's he visited GM Rick Kingi's school in L.A., and was happy to see the same techniques that he had learned from Leoning in the late 50's-early 60's.
So somewhere between Gascon and Pesare, there were changes.

i would love to see soemof these techniques!! I can say that the form demonstrated on Pesare's dvd was done with a much more shotokan 'rhythm' than the way i learned it....here's a question: How would you bring a more kaju flavour to sk, master Bishop, as we discuss ity here on MT, not as shown on the Villari DVD's

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[John Bishop]

Some Grab Arts, free sparring, and Punch Counters (Mostly white belts)

Charles Gaylord and Walter Godin

 

[stickarts]

Very cool!