The Problems of In-discipline Continue

[Sukerkin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-21895705

With the greatest of respect to those with good reason in their pasts to argue that proper punishment to ensure good behaviour is cruelty, I disagree with you. In theory I concur that you would expect that using the threat of violence to enforce compliance would only engender more violence but we have had two generations since my childhood that have not had discipline backed up by the threat of corporal punishment and this is the result.

 

[Dirty Dog]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-21895705

With the greatest of respect to those with good reason in their pasts to argue that proper punishment to ensure good behaviour is cruelty, I disagree with you. In theory I concur that you would expect that using the threat of violence to enforce compliance would only engender more violence but we have had two generations since my childhood that have not had discipline backed up by the threat of corporal punishment and this is the result.

Physical punishment is not inherently evil. Negative reinforcement is a valid and valuable tool for teaching. I personally think that positive reinforcement is even more valuable and prefer to use it, but both do have their place.

Our kids (I have 3, Sue has 7) all grew up knowing that they are loved, and that they'd get plenty of positive attention, including lots of physical affection - we're huggers. And they knew that if they screwed up, they'd get negative attention, and it wouldn't include hugs.

They're all adults now, and all are productive citizens. And other than the one employed by the Department of Corrections, none of them are looking at the inside of a cell.

 

[Sukerkin]

I utterly agree, DD.

My own upbringing was the same. Knowing that I was loved and also knowing that if I did not abide by the 'law' then there were consequences.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Im not a parent, nor do I have any plans to be, so perhaps I should stay out of this thread. However, I feel that not beating the kids isnt the problem (notice I say beating not abusing), its that people stopped beating them, and failed to replace it with another effective punishment...just got rid of punishments all together. That's what causes the problems, not ever learning that there are genuinely bad consequences for their actions..if someone can find a way besides beating their child to do it, go for it. But if not, go back to the beating.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Im not a parent, nor do I have any plans to be, so perhaps I should stay out of this thread. However, I feel that not beating the kids isnt the problem (notice I say beating not abusing), its that people stopped beating them, and failed to replace it with another effective punishment...just got rid of punishments all together. That's what causes the problems, not ever learning that there are genuinely bad consequences for their actions..if someone can find a way besides beating their child to do it, go for it. But if not, go back to the beating.

That is why I specify "negative reinforcement" rather than physical punishments. Different things work with different kids.

I started training when I was 7. I was an ITF 1st Dan at 13, and really enjoyed hard sparring. So giving me a smack didn't really mean much. But I didn't like being grounded, especially since that meant I wasn't going to the dojang. And in those days, being sent to your room didn't include access to a TV, computer and the internet...

And my mother could let out a deep sigh, shake her head, and tell me she was disappointed in me and I'd be ready to slit my wrists.

 

[Big Don]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-21895705

With the greatest of respect to those with good reason in their pasts to argue that proper punishment to ensure good behaviour is cruelty, I disagree with you. In theory I concur that you would expect that using the threat of violence to enforce compliance would only engender more violence but we have had two generations since my childhood that have not had discipline backed up by the threat of corporal punishment and this is the result.

Proverbs 13:24

Those who withhold the rod hate their children,
but the one who loves them applies discipline.

 

[jezr74]

Im not a parent, nor do I have any plans to be, so perhaps I should stay out of this thread. However, I feel that not beating the kids isnt the problem (notice I say beating not abusing), its that people stopped beating them, and failed to replace it with another effective punishment...just got rid of punishments all together. That's what causes the problems, not ever learning that there are genuinely bad consequences for their actions..if someone can find a way besides beating their child to do it, go for it. But if not, go back to the beating.

I think there is a line that parents should not cross, I don't think you mean beating in the way I think you do. A "smack" when its called for yes, but not a beating.

I agree with what your saying though. Giving a kid a smack is instant and easy. But for some parents, threatening curfews, taking away devices etc. Has to followed through with, and that can be hard. If you give in as a parent, they learn nothing and lose respect for you.

But also these days some parents are too scared to touch their kids, especially in public.

You may not be a parent, but you have been a kid.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think there is a line that parents should not cross, I don't think you mean beating in the way I think you do. A "smack" when its called for yes, but not a beating.

I agree with what your saying though. Giving a kid a smack is instant and easy. But for some parents, threatening curfews, taking away devices etc. Has to followed through with, and that can be hard. If you give in as a parent, they learn nothing and lose respect for you.

But also these days some parents are too scared to touch their kids, especially in public.

You may not be a parent, but you have been a kid.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

My kids all knew that if I needed to touch them in public, it would be to gently take their arm and walk them out to the car. If I happened to place one of my digits on a pressure point in the process.... well....

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think there is a line that parents should not cross, I don't think you mean beating in the way I think you do. A "smack" when its called for yes, but not a beating.

I agree with what your saying though. Giving a kid a smack is instant and easy. But for some parents, threatening curfews, taking away devices etc. Has to followed through with, and that can be hard. If you give in as a parent, they learn nothing and lose respect for you.

But also these days some parents are too scared to touch their kids, especially in public.

You may not be a parent, but you have been a kid.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

a smack/spanking was what i was referring to. Thats why i said not abuse, my parents smacked me on occasion, and spanked me quite a few times to. I hold the greatest respect for both of them, and learned not to do things. Some acquaintances have been 'grounded' but wasn't followed through...almost invariably, they dont respect their parents, call them a b&^%h when they do something the kid dislikes, ignore them, and dont respect bosses/coaches/etc. most of the time as well.

 

[granfire]

My kids all knew that if I needed to touch them in public, it would be to gently take their arm and walk them out to the car. If I happened to place one of my digits on a pressure point in the process.... well....

:lol:

 

[arnisador]

This is a tough problem over here too--school discipline. If the kids don't care and the parents don't care then there's no easy solution.

 

[billc]

I think to clarify the problem you would have to look at the background of the kids. I think the biggest part of the problem is teenagers having children, and then they have children as teenagers and you have generations of people raised by teenagers with no real adult influencing the child rearing process. Even when these children reach middle age, it is as if their maturity level never advanced beyond the teen years, and they pass that behavior onto their children. I saw it tonight at dinner at Baker's Square. A woman, young, with two kids and it was obvious she was too imature to handle the two children she had. It is really hard to watch it because you know the chance those kids have at a good, normal life are slim. You then have these children going into the school system with the discipline being maintained in the home at the level of teenagers without adult supervision, then you see the inability of the kids to behave normally in school. I don't know how you stop the problem when teenagers keep having and raising children.

 

[DennisBreene]

It seems that some of this reaches back to the 60's and the radical changes in society that occured. In the way of the Law of Unintended Consequences we had a generation that developed an extreme distrust of traditional authority and while achieving many positive societal changes also taught their childred that authority figures were not to be trusted or respected. Probably not a keystone to the problem, but I suspect it helped tip the balance to some degree.

 

[celtic_crippler]

There is only one universal human quality that appeals to an individual as motive to behave within the set limits of society: self preservation.

It is the strongest and most effective motivator. It is more persuasive than any moral, any threat of lost privilege, or threat of fine. There is simply nothing more influential in inspiring proper etiquette in the masses than the threat of bodily injury or worse.

Fines don’t effect the population the same way nor does loss of freedom or privileges; however, we all mostly have the same instincts for survival and self preservation.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a successful businessman or ditch-digger, if you faced 10 lashes in the public square for speeding I guarantee you either would weigh the consequences of being a little late versus the alternative equally before hitting the gas.

That being said, should corporal punishment be used to such extremes? Heinlein thought it was necessary, but I don’t. There should be escalating levels of punishment depending on the severity of the infraction. This seems to be the area where most of the disagreement occurs; we can’t decide on the whole where the line is drawn.

A child coming home 10 minutes late doesn’t deserve a beating; however, that same child caught playing with matches near the waste-basket probably could use a little more enforcement to relay the seriousness of their actions.

There are some problems with corporal punishment in child rearing that must be addressed if it is to be effective however:

• A child should never be punished in anger. Crossing the line into abuse has a negative impact on the child and while it can render immediate compliance, the long term emotional/mental damage can actually lead to them not being productive and law abiding members of society.
• Parents must provide emotional support and empathy. They must show understanding and must explain why the punishment is necessary as well as discuss the severity of other possible repercussions of similar actions.
• An escalating scale of punishment should be established and used, but not set in stone per say as that can lead to the child abusing the system once they realize what things they can get away with.

As with all cultural issues, there is no cut and dry answer or solution that will solve all of our societal ills. We must constantly evaluate and reevaluate the success or failures of accepted norms. We must keep an open mind and accept that though some approaches are based on high ideals they simply don’t work once the human condition is introduced into the equation.

In this case I agree with Sukerkin and as was pointed out in the OP we can definitely see that “sparing the rod” has indeed “spoiled the child”.

 

[jezr74]

There are different interpretations of sparing the rod too btw. Some think it means beat your kid into submission, others think it means discipline with a mild "smack" (non-abusive). And then others interpreted the rod to be the Shepherds crook from the time period of bible stories, and is used to nudge and guide, as they do with sheep.

Fear is definitely a motivator for some, but had shown long term negative affects on children.

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