The pope...

[Sukerkin]

So it's a fiction that Pope Bnedict is on a state visit? That must be news to the Queen.

<snip>

Trust me, I went easy on you. Your statement equating Benedict with a religious fundamentalist was possibly the most idiotic thing I heard in a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

I don't know if you are deliberately seeking to pick a fight or that your interpretation of sentences in English differs from mine.

I know that it is easy to grab the wrong end of the stick in Internet discourse and have seen it happen with posts of mine before now (those being the only cases in which I can say for certain that what was read was not what I meant).

However, I happily do not have to fret about it as much as I do in the real world when I feel myself slipping into a spiral of despair at ever getting my point across un-skewed.

For the record, I do think, even in the cold light of morn, that it might be a good idea to moderate how you phrase things, Chris. For misinterpretation is a two-edged sword and the content of what you have attempted to say to me is being lost in my reaction to what I see as personally directed remarks.

It is for the best if we part company I feel as I can see nothing constructive or pleasant coming out of any further exchanges.

:waves goodbye:

 

[Cirdan]

Your post is most appreciated. Maybe not for the reason you think it would be. But it is.

Likewise. But I don`t think you get it either.

 

[Ramirez]

I would hardly expect non-Christians or for that matter, non-Catholics to see the Pope as a moral authority or to obey the rules of the RCC. Where are you getting that?

Bill, the RCC IIRC threatened to excommunicate any Catholic politician that voted to legalize abortion. How was that not an attempt to force Catholic mores on the population that are not Catholics?

Sure you can argue that they were just dealing with the Catholics, but really they fully well know those politicians represented a plurality of religions and beliefs and any laws they enact following a Catholic edict will also be applied to non-Catholics.

In fact is it still not the case that any Catholic politician voting for legal abortion faces excommunication?

http://www.trosch.org/law/catholics-abortion.html

 

[Jenna]

The cost of the Pope's trip is estimated to reach £20M with the taxpayer bearing around £10-15M of that and the RCC bearing the rest out of its own coffers.

The one day G20 junket [for it is little more than a junket] here in London last year cost £20M.

Q: Which was the better value?
A: As long as I am free to pollute the atmosphere with my car and consider the use of condoms to protect myself against STIs then I do not particularly care.

Jenna x

 

[Archangel M]

Has anybody ever read Father Joseph Grizone's book "Joshua a Parable for Today"?

It's a story about what would happen between the "Church" and Christ if he were to return today. As a Catholic I found it a very thought provoking work.

If you have read it you will know why I bring it up here.

 

[Omar B]

"If you have read it you will know why I bring it up here." No, but you could try to explain what you are getting at.

 

[Archangel M]

As to what the Brits think of the Pope..should I be shocked or something? Henry VII ring any bells?

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, I do agree that the shadow of history falls long on that, Angel. Past events colour current attitudes quite strongly at times :nods:.

 

[xJOHNx]

Google 'karate instructor arrested' and say that again.

Or for that matter, take a look at Google News archives for athletic coaches, teachers, ministers of other religions, and so on. I once did a bit of Google arithmetic dealing with the number of news articles about Anglican ministers arrested for sex offenses versus Catholics priests and divided by the numbers of each to come with a percentage of news story per clergy; it turned out that Anglicans had more percentage-wise. And they're not celibate.

So perhaps celibacy has less to do with this evil than the fact that such people are attracted to jobs where they are in contact with youths and given positions of trust.

Your last paragraph made the most sense to me.

I was basing my opinion on articles I read in the local papers and magazines. In which was made clear that more abuse happened at the 'catholic' institutions than any other place in this country and seeing the amounts of confessions, it almost must be.
And in the 60'ties, Catholicism was (and still is) one of the largest institutions in this country.

edit: now I'm off to read the 'antichrist' by Nietzsche. A thought provoking book, which has nothing at all to do with Satanism.
And even less with making everybody an Atheist. As Nietzsche contrary to popular belief believed in "God", as in "the kingdom of God is within you.."

 

[Blade96]

Every time I think he can't become more of an idiot, he goes ahead and does just that. I don't know it this made the international news or not, but recently there was a big investigation into the topic of pedophilia in the Catholic church in Belgium.

As it turns out, the reality is beyond awful. There was a lot of abuse, and a lot of cover up. People here are calling out for justice; mainly for the guilty ones to be expelled from the church, and for the church to take a firm stance against this sort of thing.

Instead, we've seen the following reactions from the pope, over the last couple of weeks
1) We don't need structural reformation or punishment. We need to focus on introspection and genuine repentance.
2) Secularization and atheism were also the goal of the Nazis (WTF?!)
3) Pedophilia is a disease that overrides free will, so the clergymen are not to blame for what they do.

Small wonder that the Belgian churches can't keep up with the requests for debaptism (they have increased about tenfold compared to 2009). The only silver lining is that this pope is old so he'll die soon enough. And hopefully the next pope is less of a scumbag.

Obviously the pope doesnt believe in the saying Tis better to be quiet and let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

I always love when the religious blame atheists for Nazis. Point 24 of the Nazi Twenty five Points is -

"24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest."

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. The great masses of a nation are not composed of philosophers. For the masses of the people, especially faith is absolutely the only basis of a moral outlook on life. The various substitutes that have been offered have not shown any results that might warrant us in thinking that they might usefully replace the existing denominations. ...There may be a few hundreds of thousands of superior men who can live wisely and intelligently without depending on the general standards that prevail in everyday life, but the millions of others cannot do so.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

By helping to lift the human being above the level of mere animal existence, Faith really contributes to consolidate and safeguard its own existence. Taking humanity as it exists to-day and taking into consideration the fact that the religious beliefs which it generally holds and which have been consolidated through our education, so that they serve as moral standards in practical life, if we should now abolish religious teaching and not replace it by anything of equal value the result would be that the foundations of human existence would be seriously shaken.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 2 Chapter 1

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10

May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 24, 1933

We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland.
- Adolf Hitler, Prayer, May 1, 1933

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then Church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the Church as much as of Fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop.
- Adolf Hitler in conversation with Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Bavaria, November 4, 1936

Or maybe a christian could read "The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945," by Richard Steigmann-Gall. Great book. Personally I never got where this conception that the Nazis were atheists (I guess they wished to base one war on us atheists) when they clearly were christians and wanted to keep the fatherland pure of other religions.

Gyaku zuki! Good job debunking that post.

 

[Omar B]

That Chris person tried to, only commented on the Mein Kampf quotes and held firm to the fact that Hitler was not a christian. But he was, I guess the other quotes from speeches after he was already chancellor or the talk with the German Cardinal were fine to ignore. Or one could ignore the fact that Hitler identified himself as a christian, I guess you could disagree with what the man classes himself as.

 

[Omar B]

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God&#8217;s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice&#8230; And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
&#8211;Adolf Hitler, speech 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

The Führer commands the diplomatic and social forms better than a born sovereign. ...Without a doubt the chancellor lives in faith in God. He recognizes Christianity as the foundation of Western culture. ...Not as clear is his conception of the Catholic Church as a God-established institution." As a result of this report, the conference votes to "once again affirm our loyal and positive attitude, demanded by the fourth commandment, toward today's form of government and the Führer." They assure the Führer they will provide him "all available moral resources his world-historical struggle aimed at repelling Bolshevism.
- Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber, meeting of Bavarian bishops on his meeting with Adolf Hitler, December 13, 1936

I wish to express my church's sincere and joyous preparedness to cooperate as best they could with the government now ruling that had set itself that tasks of promoting the Christian education of the people, repelling ungodliness and immorality, developing readiness to make sacrifices for the common good and protecting the rights of the Church.
- Cardinal Adolf Bertram, Archbishop of Breslau, letter to Adolf Hitler following the announcement of the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican, July 22, 1933

What the old parliament and parties did not accomplish in sixty years, your statesmanlike foresight has achieved in six months. For Germany's prestige in East and West and before the whole world this handshake with the Papacy, the greatest moral power in the history of the world, is a feat of immeasurable blessing. ...May God preserve the Reich Chancellor for our people.
- Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Bavaria, praising Adolf Hitler for the Concordat, July 24, 1933

The word "German" is God's Word! Whosoever understands this is released from all theological conflicts. This is German: return home to Germany and leave behind egoism and your feelings of abandonment. ...Christ has come to us through the person of Adolf Hitler. ...Hitler has taken root in us; through his strength, through his honesty, his faith and his idealism we have found our way to paradise.
- Kirchenrat Leutheusser, addressing German Christians in Saalfeld, August 30, 1933

Adolf Hitler is the tool of God, called upon to overcome Judaism...
- Father Senn, a Catholic priest, writing in a Catholic publication, May 15, 1934

Just putting that to rest so we can get back to discussing the Pope's visit. On a side note, I've practiced my German more in the past 2 days than in the whole year alone so I guess it serves a purpose.

 

[bribrius]

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
–Adolf Hitler, speech 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

The Führer commands the diplomatic and social forms better than a born sovereign. ...Without a doubt the chancellor lives in faith in God. He recognizes Christianity as the foundation of Western culture. ...Not as clear is his conception of the Catholic Church as a God-established institution." As a result of this report, the conference votes to "once again affirm our loyal and positive attitude, demanded by the fourth commandment, toward today's form of government and the Führer." They assure the Führer they will provide him "all available moral resources his world-historical struggle aimed at repelling Bolshevism.
- Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber, meeting of Bavarian bishops on his meeting with Adolf Hitler, December 13, 1936

I wish to express my church's sincere and joyous preparedness to cooperate as best they could with the government now ruling that had set itself that tasks of promoting the Christian education of the people, repelling ungodliness and immorality, developing readiness to make sacrifices for the common good and protecting the rights of the Church.
- Cardinal Adolf Bertram, Archbishop of Breslau, letter to Adolf Hitler following the announcement of the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican, July 22, 1933

What the old parliament and parties did not accomplish in sixty years, your statesmanlike foresight has achieved in six months. For Germany's prestige in East and West and before the whole world this handshake with the Papacy, the greatest moral power in the history of the world, is a feat of immeasurable blessing. ...May God preserve the Reich Chancellor for our people.
- Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Bavaria, praising Adolf Hitler for the Concordat, July 24, 1933

The word "German" is God's Word! Whosoever understands this is released from all theological conflicts. This is German: return home to Germany and leave behind egoism and your feelings of abandonment. ...Christ has come to us through the person of Adolf Hitler. ...Hitler has taken root in us; through his strength, through his honesty, his faith and his idealism we have found our way to paradise.
- Kirchenrat Leutheusser, addressing German Christians in Saalfeld, August 30, 1933

Adolf Hitler is the tool of God, called upon to overcome Judaism...
- Father Senn, a Catholic priest, writing in a Catholic publication, May 15, 1934

Just putting that to rest so we can get back to discussing the Pope's visit. On a side note, I've practiced my German more in the past 2 days than in the whole year alone so I guess it serves a purpose.

http://www.trueorigin.org/hitler01.asp

 

[Omar B]

I'm sure a site with this as their logo is really credible. Especially when their first sources is another creationist web site. Maybe he did hate christianity and religion, doesn't change the fact that he identified as one as did many of his top men and was quite close with the cardinal in Germany at the time. Not the first time people hated what they identified themselves as, gays, various ethic groups, blah blah blah.

Exposing the myth of evolution. LOL!

 

[bribrius]

I'm sure a site with this as their logo is really credible. Especially when their first sources is another creationist web site. Maybe he did hate christianity and religion, doesn't change the fact that he identified as one as did many of his top men and was quite close with the cardinal in Germany at the time. Not the first time people hated what they identified themselves as, gays, various ethic groups, blah blah blah.

Exposing the myth of evolution. LOL!

does it matter? It is a redliculous argument.
you can find numerous websites going either way on his religion. with supporting evidence going either way. Hitler himself made contrary statements, either way.

Truth be known he was probably a social darwinist, materialist, rooted closer to nature. Raised catholic he never let go of the notion of god completley but had been reported to have believed in reincarnation and dabled in the occult as well too so what the hell. So basically, he was a man with no true religion. Worshiping himself or his nation with the idea he was predestined. Many had gone this route of materialism and social darwinsim. It was after all copied from darwin, from some in the united states who followed it with early eugenics, and further fit perfectly into hitlers views for the future of Germany and disposing of who he did not want around. Marx had similiar views. Marx was not a christian either. Hitler actually claimed to hate socialism as well and attibuted it to aiding in the decline of germany along with the jews. But If you look at his actions he did not act like a christian, killed christians, followed various beliefs but acted on those of social darwinism. And set up a semi-socialist state even after he claimed he hated the socialists. Reason being he was really a nationalist seeking power to return germany to what he thought was the rightful heirs and overseer of the world. The semi socialist state a appeasement, no different than the speeches for the religious. He was a politician.
.

 

[Empty Hands]

Many had gone this route of materialism and social darwinsim. It was after all copied from darwin...

Darwin had nothing to do with social darwinism. Nor was he a materialist for most of his life, if not all.

Marx had similiar views. Marx was not a christian either.

Marx also had nothing to do with social darwinism.

But If you look at his actions he did not act like a christian, killed christians, followed various beliefs but acted on those of social darwinism.

Real Christians don't kill other Christians? So the medieval Catholic church wasn't Christian? The Calvinists in their little terror state of Geneva weren't Christian? Bah.

Many of the actual social darwinians were Christians, in Germany, the US, the UK and elsewhere. Hard not to be, when it's the social norm.

And set up a semi-socialist state even after he claimed he hated the socialists.

No he didn't. None of the socialist party planks were ever put into place. No land was redistributed, no nothing. Industrialists and other capitalists were a key source of support for the regime, and the unionists and communists were persecuted.

This just gets pathetic. Everyone keeps trying to throw the guy back to the other side, and abuses history in the process. Some morons even make the man a "liberal"!

 

[Ken Morgan]

Here's Mein Kampf http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/
Type god or Jesus into the find feature and see what happens.
I'm sure his speeches are somewhere too.

 

[Omar B]

does it matter? It is a redliculous argument.
you can find numerous websites going either way on his religion. with supporting evidence going either way. Hitler himself made contrary statements, either way.

Truth be known he was probably a social darwinist, materialist, rooted closer to nature. Raised catholic he never let go of the notion of god completley but had been reported to have believed in reincarnation and dabled in the occult as well too so what the hell. So basically, he was a man with no true religion. Worshiping himself or his nation with the idea he was predestined. Many had gone this route of materialism and social darwinsim. It was after all copied from darwin, from some in the united states who followed it with early eugenics, and further fit perfectly into hitlers views for the future of Germany and disposing of who he did not want around. Marx had similiar views. Marx was not a christian either. Hitler actually claimed to hate socialism as well and attibuted it to aiding in the decline of germany along with the jews. But If you look at his actions he did not act like a christian, killed christians, followed various beliefs but acted on those of social darwinism. And set up a semi-socialist state even after he claimed he hated the socialists. Reason being he was really a nationalist seeking power to return germany to what he thought was the rightful heirs and overseer of the world. The semi socialist state a appeasement, no different than the speeches for the religious. He was a politician.
.

Yes it does matter. It's a web site where they believe in magic, not exactly where I would go for any sort of source on anything unless I was a christian and predisposed to believing in magic.

Doesn't matter what you think christianity is, there seems to be this huge thing going on where if a person who identifies as christian and does not conduct himself in the way you (the christian decider you are) expect him to then he's not. Fact is even even within christianity there are many disparate sects claiming that they are true christians and the others are not. Morons say it, 7th Day Adventists, Baptists, Lutherans. So clearly there is no consensus within christianity itself as to what it is. He may not have acted like a christian as you said, but those kid touching priests are christians and they committed reprehensible acts, David Coresh, Jim Jones, etc. Fact is, if the person identifies as a christian then he is because clearly even within the christian community there is no concensus. Besides, all those glowing speeches from various Cardinals of the catholic chuck (who I;'m pretty sure are christians) say very glowing things abotu him in regards to him living in the faith of god.

 

[bribrius]

Darwin had nothing to do with social darwinism. Nor was he a materialist for most of his life, if not all.



Marx also had nothing to do with social darwinism.



Real Christians don't kill other Christians? So the medieval Catholic church wasn't Christian? The Calvinists in their little terror state of Geneva weren't Christian? Bah.

Many of the actual social darwinians were Christians, in Germany, the US, the UK and elsewhere. Hard not to be, when it's the social norm.



No he didn't. None of the socialist party planks were ever put into place. No land was redistributed, no nothing. Industrialists and other capitalists were a key source of support for the regime, and the unionists and communists were persecuted.

This just gets pathetic. Everyone keeps trying to throw the guy back to the other side, and abuses history in the process. Some morons even make the man a "liberal"!

http://www.toolan.com/hitler/surplus.html
suppose we could go back and forth at this....


http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html

Marx hated jews.

Marx was a materialist. Darwin wasn't? since when?

Darwin wasn't early eugenics? early social darwinism? Why do you think they call it social DARWINISM. Have you read darwin? It isn't so much a leap.....

Isn't it darwin who said he basically hoped the inferior of our species dont marry and reproduce? Since we don't have the heart to let people die and will screw up evolution by not doing so?

sure sounds similiar to social darwinism..........

 

[Omar B]

Another christian web site? It's like using verses from the bible to prove it's veracity. Nice work bud.