The pope and his Islamic quotes

[fireman00]

The 33 year old problem or "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland were less religious in nature and more sectarian. The pro-English rule folks were mainly Protestants while the united Ireland folks were predominantly Roman Catholic. It was NOT a religous war nor was it every portrayed to be over religion - it was over who would rule and how Ireland would be ruled.

It is a LONG stretch to compare the inquistion of the 1200's and today's Roman Catholic church.

Its ironic that what the Pope said has become truth - Islam condones the use violence and threats to force the unclean into believers.

 

[Andrew Green]

Once again, this is not really "religion" per se. It is human sociocentrism and ethnocentrism. The Stalinists and Maoists were saying and doing very similar things not too long ago, and they are as "secular" as it gets.

True enough, same could be said for the Communist vs Capitalist. It was a "They are evil and going to destroy our way of life" game from both sides.

 

[CoryKS]

Found this article, which concerns the use of scripture by non-Christians to show that Christianity has the same propensity toward violence as Islam, despite lagging far behind in total beheadings this century. I'd be interested to hear what you guys think. I'm a Pastafarian myself, so I really don't have a dog in the whole "Your god is more bloodthirsty than their god" fight. As long as we maintain the minimum requirement of pirates, the FSM is usually pretty calm - as befits a god who promises a beer volcano in heaven.

When Atheists and Secularists Quote Scripture

And for those of you who have no idea what I was talking about at the end:

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

 

[heretic888]

Found this article, which concerns the use of scripture by non-Christians to show that Christianity has the same propensity toward violence as Islam, despite lagging far behind in total beheadings this century. I'd be interested to hear what you guys think.

I think this has exceedingly little to do with the religious traditions themselves, and more to do with their historical, social, and economic environments. Agrarian societies take religion more seriously. Industrialized societies don't.

You will notice that the vast majority of Muslims living in Western democratic nations tend to be as peaceful as anybody else. That is extremely telling.

People can cite religious scriptures all they want, but the truth of the matter is that every religious group is extremely "selective" in their appropriation of scripture. They emphasize the parts they like (i.e., that agree with their ideology) and ignore the parts they don't. As such, citing line X from book Y doesn't really "prove" anything in regards to the outlooks of conventional "believers".

Laterz.

 

[Andrew Green]

You will notice that the vast majority of Muslims living in Western democratic nations tend to be as peaceful as anybody else. That is extremely telling.

Yup, it's political. But when Religion and Politics are the same, religius reasons can be used to justify political actions... like war.

 

[ajs1976]

His anyone found a transcript of the speech? I heard that the comments that are causing the controversary where actually quotes from some emporer. That it wasn't someing the Pope was saying about Islam, but something he was using to make a point.

 

[CoryKS]

I think this has exceedingly little to do with the religious traditions themselves, and more to do with their historical, social, and economic environments. Agrarian societies take religion more seriously. Industrialized societies don't.

You will notice that the vast majority of Muslims living in Western democratic nations tend to be as peaceful as anybody else. That is extremely telling.

As are the vast majority of Christians living in agrarian societies. Which is also extremely telling. Why are the Christians of Lebanon not erupting in violent rage over photos of Muslims burning the pope in effigy? What keeps Thai Christians from taking to the streets in protest as did Muslims of that nation? If religious traditions play such a little part, we should be seeing a massive backlash in the agrarian countries where the Christians share the same history and socioeconomic environment as the Muslims.

 

[King]

His anyone found a transcript of the speech? I heard that the comments that are causing the controversary where actually quotes from some emporer. That it wasn't someing the Pope was saying about Islam, but something he was using to make a point.

Just going through it myself, here is a link: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474

 

[heretic888]

As are the vast majority of Christians living in agrarian societies. Which is also extremely telling. Why are the Christians of Lebanon not erupting in violent rage over photos of Muslims burning the pope in effigy? What keeps Thai Christians from taking to the streets in protest as did Muslims of that nation? If religious traditions play such a little part, we should be seeing a massive backlash in the agrarian countries where the Christians share the same history and socioeconomic environment as the Muslims.

My guess would be because they are a minority with relatively little social power in the nations in question.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

As are the vast majority of Christians living in agrarian societies. Which is also extremely telling. Why are the Christians of Lebanon not erupting in violent rage over photos of Muslims burning the pope in effigy? What keeps Thai Christians from taking to the streets in protest as did Muslims of that nation? If religious traditions play such a little part, we should be seeing a massive backlash in the agrarian countries where the Christians share the same history and socioeconomic environment as the Muslims.

Do you see it in ANY Christian majority nation? I dont. People in Turkey are calling for the Pope to be arrested and charged with blasphemy when he arrives there on a trip. Very tolerant.

 

[heretic888]

Do you see it in ANY Christian majority nation? I dont. People in Turkey are calling for the Pope to be arrested and charged with blasphemy when he arrives there on a trip. Very tolerant.

It should be pointed out that "Christian majority nation" is something of a misnomer, as all such nations are secular democratic countries that hold decidedly modern and humanistic values (such as the Separation of Church and State). This, of course, is a product of their history and socioeconomic environment.

Laterz.

 

[CoryKS]

My guess would be because they are a minority with relatively little social power in the nations in question.

Mostly accurate, for the nations I mentioned. Lebanon is 40% Christian vs. 55% Muslim (sects combined), according to Wikipedia. So, a sizable minority but still a minority. Not without power, however. Their constitution requires that the president must be a Maronite Catholic, the PM a Sunni, and the Speaker of the Parliament a Shiite. Also, they have half the Parliament seats. So, a more-or-less equal partner - at least on paper.

Thailand is (again, according to Wiki) 94.6% Buddhist, 5% - 15% Muslim (there is dispute over this number), and 0.75% Christian, with a smattering of Hindus and Sikhs. So again, the Christians are indeed a very small minority. On the other hand, so are the Muslims. In fact, even assuming the highest estimated number, they are a smaller minority than those Christians in Lebanon. And yet on any given week we can read accounts of Muslims in Thailand rioting, protesting, beheading schoolchildren and teachers, and calling for the adoption of Sharia law. Their minority status does not seem to be a limiting factor.

I don't disagree with your statement about historical and socioeconomics traditions, but feel that religion is a large part of both. Religion is a way of encapsulating certain cultural beliefs and placing them beyond reproach. It is the ultimate appeal to authority - an authority that cannot be debated with. Want to ensure that your people don't engage in a certain practice? Put it in the book and tell 'em God said so. End of argument. That said, it matters a great deal what is being put in the book, and when. All religions are not the same.

 

[Martial Tucker]

Put Jesus, the Buddha, and Mohammed in a room together, and they would
embrace and love each other.

Put many of their professed followers in the same room, and they will try to kill each other.

How ironic......


It's all about the Ego.....My (fill in the blank) is better/holier/whatever than yours, and I would rather fight than admit otherwise, because to admit otherwise somehow makes me feel inferior.

When will we figure out that we're all identical drops of water in the same ocean, and there IS no superior/inferior?

 

[CoryKS]

Here's an interesting article on the topic:

Jihad Enablers

 

[Bigshadow]

I just read this, regarding the recent comments from the pope.

I find it a bit ironic... The pope quoted implicated that Islam has tended to be irrational and violent. Islamic leaders around the world have gone bananas over the quote. One might even say that they are acting irrationally and some groups are encouraging the assassination of the pope, which sure is violent. Are they in fact proving that the pope is correct? They seem more concerned over words than murder by the radical fundamentalists.

This reminds me of the Danish cartoons portraying Mohhamed (sp) with a bomb in his turban. Papers in Saudi Arabia portraying Jesus in a bad manor would go simply unnoticed. No uproar from the catholic church or the US. Just seems a bit two-faced...

I chuckled to myself when no sooner than the news anchor finished explaining how upset the islamic people were with the pope for his quoting someone else about the violence, they immediately start running video of little kids with their toy guns pointing them at the camera and an effigy of the pope in protest of what he said. Oh, the irony...

 

[Bigshadow]

After thinking more about what the Pope said, isn't this a case of "The pot calling the Kettle black"? Christians have certainly doled out their fair share of death and destruction through out history in the name of Christ. I am sure this will spark some flames, but so be it.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

True, but who is doing it NOW?

 

[Bigshadow]

True, but who is doing it NOW?

That is not really the point I was trying to make. I am not making a case for either side. Just stating a fact.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I dont subscribe to the idea that as a Christian I am responsible for the crusades, inquisition etc. I wasnt alive then and the faith isnt the same as it was then and the "well Christians tortured people in the dark ages so you are no better" point is evading the issue. While by and large Islam isnt preaching "death to the infidels", there are plenty of places and people who ARE. And while it may just be the medias fault, I dont see the larger Muslim world rising up to condem or deal with these Terrorist groups who are justifying murder in the name of their religion. While I dont hold the entire faith to blame, there does seem to be a groundswell of tacit support, if not for the method, at least for the concept.

 

[Bigshadow]

I dont subscribe to the idea that as a Christian I am responsible for the crusades, inquisition etc. I wasnt alive then and the faith isnt the same as it was then and the "well Christians tortured people in the dark ages so you are no better" point is evading the issue. While by and large Islam isnt preaching "death to the infidels", there are plenty of places and people who ARE. And while it may just be the medias fault, I dont see the larger Muslim world rising up to condem or deal with these Terrorist groups who are justifying murder in the name of their religion. While I dont hold the entire faith to blame, the does seem to be tacit support if not for the method at least for the concept.

No you weren't responsible and no Christians aren't currently being violent. I was just pointing out that it has had a rather violent history of it's own. I don't see anything wrong with what the Pope said, either.

So maybe now it isn't "the pot calling the kettle black" as that was the question.