The Order to "Stand Down"

[michaeledward]

What would that "something intentional" be??

A conspiracy theory might be that we have been without a realistic enemy for sometime now. By keeping the citizenry in fear, the administration is able to perpetrate control over sectors of the soceity that would otherwise be locked away (The USAPATRIOT ACT). Certainly, there has been a huge financial windfall to the Military Industrial Complex. All of those weapons used to conquer Iraq will need to be replenished. Halliburton seems to have ended up in a pretty good place. I would be willing to bet that Lockheed is going to see some funding move its way. The increases in spending to the military have been positive when compared to revenues or budget growth.

There are some who have, and will, benefit from the changes in government policy since September 11, 2001.

See Gore Vidal - Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace

Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

But one has to wonder if those in power would kill hundreds of thousands just to enrich themselves, or distract from their failings.

 

[michaeledward]

But one has to wonder if those in power would kill hundreds of thousands just to enrich themselves, or distract from their failings.

Certainly, you have to wonder how far those with the juice might go. Look at Rupert Murdoch ... CEO of NewsCorp. As I understand it, he is extremely conservative, but if you look at the crap he allows on his FOX television network, it is apparent that his personal beliefs do not drive his corporate philosophy. (You could reverse that argument if you looked at FOXNews).

He has shown that he will sleep with the devil if it is going to make his company (and thus him) more money. (see the satellite broadcasting rights to China).

Is he unique in these behaviors? I think not.

Speculation Here ---

Assume for the moment, the Adminstration wanted to get the country on a war footing, for a few of the reasons mentioned earlier (and you can probably envision others as well) .... and assuming they had an inkling that a terrorist attack might take place on american soil ....

Could the Administration just 'stumble' a little bit when an attack started, let's say .... the president sit in a classroom of second graders reading about a pet pig ....

And then, things get a bit out of control .... buildings collapse. Instead of one attack, there are four coordinated attacks ...

All of a sudden ... instead of Pan-AM 103, you have 9/11.

------ End of Speculation

I wonder if there is a cute little ICON for throwing bombs

 

[Tgace]

Yet another highly co-ordinated, well planned conspiracy with nobody blowing any whistle.. yet we cant co-ordinate a "discovery " of WMD in Iraq to justify the war...find Osama...etc.

I dont buy it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Maybe the reason we can't find Osama is because we (meaning those who are really looking for him) aren't?

Saddamn was found in under 1 year. Its now almost -3- and still no Osama.
Purhaps the resources that should have been focused on finding him, have been distracted by the illegal action in Iraq? Purhaps he's sitting on a lawn chair at Camp David drinking a Mint Julip?

The truth is somewhere in between. As Robin Williams said, "Osama Bin-Ladin is a six foot tall Arab on dialysis... why is that so ****ing hard to find?"

 

[michaeledward]

Yet another highly co-ordinated, well planned conspiracy with nobody blowing any whistle.. yet we cant co-ordinate a "discovery " of WMD in Iraq to justify the war...find Osama...etc.

I dont buy it.

It doesn't take a hell of a lot of work to do nothing.

 

[Tgace]

Maybe his remains are buried in a mountian bunker somewhere and well never find him...just as viable an option.

I still wonder how people can believe in huge government conspiracy...but not wonder why WMD havent been "found" yet...if I was "minister of conspiracy" a plane load of nerve agent would have been airdropped somewhere and "hidden" for later discovery....much easier to pull off than some of these ideas Ive seen tossed around.

 

[Tgace]

It doesn't take a hell of a lot of work to do nothing.

Yes but your starting to remind me of a defense attny...."So officer isnt it Possible that my client wasnt trying to kidnap the victim, that he was just trying to pull her off the street to avoid being hit by a car?"

"He was dressed in camoflauge, jumped out of the bushes, covered her mouth..."

"Officer, Isnt it possible?"

"Yes I suppose anything is possible."

 

[michaeledward]

Yes but your starting to remind me of a defense attny...."So officer isnt it Possible that my client wasnt trying to kidnap the victim, that he was just trying to pull her off the street to avoid being hit by a car?"
"He was dressed in camoflauge, jumped out of the bushes, covered her mouth..."
"Officer, Isnt it possible?"
"Yes I suppose anything is possible."

But at what point would you entertain that such a possibility exists. And my speculation is not exactly where my beliefs are, but I try not to start from my conclusion and work back through the facts.

Is what I propose a possibility? I say YES, it is. How much of a possibility? Well, pretty damn slim, say 1 in 1,000 odds.

But then, 35 days earlier, the government was warned about possible hijackings? Gee-willickers, why did it take so long for those planes to get scrambled? Why were they flying at only 700 mph from Otis to NYC? (either that or they got lost). The military was in the middle of a big alert exercise, surely they should have been able to adapt more quickly.

Does that tighten the odds any ..... well, maybe a little ... let's say to 1 in 950.

Some have proposed this Adminstration has wanted to go to war with Saddam Hussein since the first day of their service. Could an attack on our country serve as a justification for an invasion on Iraq.... well, maybe.... does that trim the odds any? ... a little? ...

Sure, it would be a whole lot easier to have had the CIA plant some weapons of mass destruction. I'm kinda surprised that hasn't happened (after all, they are the organization of the exploding cigar to kill Castro). Perhaps, the administration was so wrapped up in its own 'GroupThink', and they were so certain that the weapons existed, they didn't think it was necessary to plant it. Hell, the Administration is still spouting that WMD might be found (oh, damn. I apologize for using that WMD acronym ... I so hate it. - By the way, there are excellent arguements against calling biological weapons - weapons of mass destruction).

So, Yeah ... The possibilities of the Bush administration (or their clients) intentionally perpetrating such an activity (or in-activity, I guess) is slim. But it is not a zero% possibility.

I think it far more likely that they are incompetent. The administration was too busy looking to build a Star Wars Defense System to fight the Soviet Union than they were to address terrorism, the middle east conflict and extreme Islamic fundamentalists who were pissed off that non-believers were living in their holy cities. (after-all we were invited in).

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Yes councilor I suppose anything is possible...

and lets not forget that this "ball-dropping" spans multiple administrations..

Im not really saying its "impossible" just unlikely for many of the same reasons you just said.....Just another "darkness" thread...maybe we should start an "Amerika Sucks" forum to keep these all together.

 

[michaeledward]

Yes councilor I suppose anything is possible...

and lets not forget that this "ball-dropping" spans multiple administrations..

Im not really saying its "impossible" just unlikely for many of the same reasons you just said.....Just another "darkness" thread...maybe we should start an "Amerika Sucks" forum to keep these all together.

It is spelled "America".

It is a bit discouraging that I can not participate in a conversation without you insinuating that I am a communist.

 

[Tgace]

No..no..no...I was griping about yet another thread of the same "tone" as all the other Pax Americana, Etc. threads.....

Im agreeing with you...(believe it or not) the possibility exists. I may make the odds higher than you, but I do have an open mind...just arrive during business hours.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The part of everthing that worries me, is that if we were really -that- unprepared, how would we have reacted if a full blown invasion hit our soil? A couple thousand submarine based assault troops hitting various beaches in the dead of night could have taken various locations, fortified and been well entrenched b4 we could mobilize.

That can still happen.

Lets be honest here.... drugs get through still. The Mexican boarder is not well patroled except at certain locations. We have thousands of miles of coastline as well. The concept of Blitzkreig was invented in the 1860s....its not new. A small force could easily take a few small towns, or important landmarks.

We are still vulnerable to attack.

Yes, that dropped ball spans over 4 administrations. However it was on the current administration that the hull was breached. It must be patched, strengthened and fortified under the current administration.

Now...since I will be asked 'whats the plan', here it is:

Line of site 24/7/365 border patrol involving land, air and sea.
Fortify the Mexican border
Line of site border watch stations
Search every ship, plane, car, truck, etc that enters our territory.
If you find a plane flying down low on the deck, under radar limits, splash it.
Use seized assets as a partial funding source.
Sell war bonds
Streamline government agencies bloated with do-nothings. Lean and Mean.


Part of the question here is "What Happened."
The bigger is "How do we ensure it never happens again?"

 

[Tgace]

You think the Patriot Act stirred things up....imagine what happens after that!!!

Havent seen many 1,000 troop capable "submarine assault" craft though...

 

[michaeledward]

I think geography prevents any invastion from being successful in the long term. Sure, an enemy could invade Nantucket, or Key West, but if they tried to take over let's say Arizona, in a short time, the US could strike back from Montana.

The ability to eliminate all of the counter threats just doesn't exist, without multi-war-head nuclear missles (MAD).

I think terrorism is the only weapon left to assault the United States successfully. And it succeeds when we establish those 'line of sight' borders. The United States is never going to be a secure state. And, if we don't want to end up like Israel, launching counter-attacks against counter-attacks of counter-attacks, we are going to have to find a way to have people make the choice that terrorism is an unnacceptable option.

This is the line the President is taking ... Create Freedom and Terrorism is no longer an acceptable choice.

The problem is, you can't impose freedom with a gun. It is quite hard to impose freedom from outside of a society. The people who inspire freedom (such as Ghandi & Martin Luther King Jr) can't be flown into a country with their supports (ala Chalabi & Karzai)

I think a 1000 person assault submarine is a cool weapon ... have we floated the idea to Lockheed yet?

m

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I had a bit more indepth suggestion....it involved napalm and coca fields....people got a little, umm...'concerned'.

Shhh.... Captain Nemo might be offended.


Seriously, there is enough surplus hardware floating around out there that someone with a cash flow could assemble a small strike force.
As an example, the Qiongsha Class Troop Transport Ship can carry 400 troops.
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/amphibious/qiongsha.asp
While thats a bit obvious, small freighters, speedboats and such can easily ply the coastal waters.

Some equipment is easily found, though its condition is, questionably.
http://vlad.tribnet.com/1999/iss188/focus.htp

It would take some planning, preparation and coordination to pull off. But, if they can hijack -4- jets in 1 shot, landing a couple hundred suicide troops isn't much more of a leap is it?

That is the part that scares me.

 

[Tgace]

Im with Mike on this one too...its Terrorism, not conventional military attack thats our biggest threat. Bunker-up our boarders and were not America (note the proper spelling Mike) anymore, which is one of their goals.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The part is, its a given that they won't hold the ground. There's no way short of a major meltdown that enough troops can land to take and hold ground.

But, to hear that terrorists have seized the Statue of Liberty, or Grand Central Station, or a local high school....then a police station....then a mall...then another place, etc.... all over the country.

9/11 knocked us off kilter....such escalation of terror would possibly send us over the edge, and we would be as paranoid as those poor folks in Israel...never knowing if this trip to the cafe will be your last.


It is because of this, that hearing the gaps that allowed 9/11 to occur concern me. While I care that they happened...I'm more concerned with knowing that steps have been taken to ensure it doesn't happen again. Specifics aren't needed...but we need to know that the 'broken' parts are being not just fixed, but improved.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm with ya too.
We have to protect America, without becoming Amerika.

 

[Makalakumu]

The truth is somewhere in between. As Robin Williams said, "Osama Bin-Ladin is a six foot tall Arab on dialysis... why is that so ****ing hard to find?"

The Elder Bush was meeting with Osama's brother. After the attacks and all the planes were grounded, the entire bin laden clan was flown out of the United States. Also, what about all of the high level officials that were warned not to fly to Washington or NYC...like the whole joint cheifs of staff. This is not conspiracy stuff, people, this has been printed in major sources and has been everywhere on the internet. What is going on?