The Ongoing Debates...

[chaosomega]

I have a real problem. A problem with people in online forums who get all fired up about kata vs. no kata or grappling vs. no grappling type 'discussions'.

It's useless! Neither side will convince the other because both sides believe too fervently about their training methods, whether they, in reality, are wrong or not! (Especially over the internet).

You can tell which 'side' I'd be on with a quick look at my profile, but I never try to argue that my training method is better! If I'm right and the TMAs are wrong, then so what? They will learn sooner or later, and if they don't ignorance is bliss! If I'M wrong, then I will learn sooner or later, and if I don't I will continue with my life being blissfully ignorant!

In the end, I say it matters not. Don't waste your energy (what little energy you would use typing out your petty arguements).

Enough! Gahhhh.....

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

So, if we don't debate about styles and training methodologies, then this would be just like every other martial arts internet forum. Boooorrrrriiiinnnngggg...

 

[Zepp]

I understand you're frustration, but I think you're taking these debates the wrong way. It's just all part of the discussion that goes on when you get people from different styles and training backrounds together to discuss what they do. You're right that it's pointless to get all fired up and angry and start throwing insults (doesn't happen here much, but I've read it aplenty on other sites), but so long as it stays civil, who cares?

Personally, I now pass up most the TMA vs. MMA threads I come across, because I've heard it all before, and I've said my piece before, and I don't care to start it up again just because someone hasn't heard it all before.

 

[moving target]

The problem I see with most of those threds is that most are either flame wars, or are just regurgitated posts that first showed their face on the internet through a usenet discussion.

There can be some good discussion but to often it's more about someone wanting to get responce or trying to convert other people to a postion they probably don't fully understand.

Still it's easy enough to avoid them.. if a thred starts going that way I just stop reading the thred.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by moving target
The problem I see with most of those threds is that most are either flame wars, or are just regurgitated posts that first showed their face on the internet through a usenet discussion.

There can be some good discussion but to often it's more about someone wanting to get responce or trying to convert other people to a postion they probably don't fully understand.

I feel the same way. I don't think I would say most posts, but lately more and more are leaning that way. My posting frequency has gone down tremendously because of the many threads reaching that way.

7sm

 

[takadadojokeith]

So now we debate about debating?

 

[Black Bear]

This is an interesting point which I myself have been thinking about lately. Put simply, "do the discussions you have online affect the way you train? AT ALL?" I believe that for most people, it does not. One of the factors is that many of them are not studio owners. How they train is not determined by what they want or what their goals are, but what their instructor dictates. In nutrition, there is the idea of the "gatekeeper"--the person in the household who makes the shopping decisions. It matters not what any other individual in that household knows about nutrition, or what their goals are. You have to get the the gatekeeper if you want to change what goes into the bodies of anyone in the household. School owners often behave as gatekeepers of knowledge and of the way that training time is used. If they don't believe in grappling, or if they can't do it and their ego will not allow them to learn alongside their students, then this will limit the amount of grappling that most of the students will learn. Even some of the school owners here, I know that the discussions here will affect the way they train very little if at all. Even if they are dead wrong! Even if in their heart they know it!

So why do they have these conversations if they don't increase the quality of our training? I think that if we are honest, we aren't here because we love MA. That's a tiny part of the picture. Really, we're here because we love martial TALK. We like to banter. We enjoy it intrinsically. I know I do. I've not learned very much here that will affect my training. But I enjoy the debate and joking around. I like to analyze my own beliefs and learn to articulate what I know or think or feel.

I hope that the people here are the minority of martial artists. I HOPE that the majority of martial artists are more focused on performance enhancement than debate and discourse. Well they should have some discourse, but not a few hours a week like some of us. But for some of us, this stuff turns our crank, and that's fine.

 

[markulous]

I personally don't really enjoy debating. I do it a lot of times just because it's nessicary. The reason I am here is because this is one window for the martial arts world.

 

[Black Bear]

I personally don't really enjoy debating. I do it a lot of times just because it's nessicary. The reason I am here is because this is one window for the martial arts world.

I agree that debating is sometimes "necessary". But under what circumstances do you consider debating to be necessary?

 

[Touch Of Death]

This is an interesting point which I myself have been thinking about lately. Put simply, "do the discussions you have online affect the way you train? AT ALL?" I believe that for most people, it does not. One of the factors is that many of them are not studio owners. How they train is not determined by what they want or what their goals are, but what their instructor dictates. In nutrition, there is the idea of the "gatekeeper"--the person in the household who makes the shopping decisions. It matters not what any other individual in that household knows about nutrition, or what their goals are. You have to get the the gatekeeper if you want to change what goes into the bodies of anyone in the household. School owners often behave as gatekeepers of knowledge and of the way that training time is used. If they don't believe in grappling, or if they can't do it and their ego will not allow them to learn alongside their students, then this will limit the amount of grappling that most of the students will learn. Even some of the school owners here, I know that the discussions here will affect the way they train very little if at all. Even if they are dead wrong! Even if in their heart they know it!

So why do they have these conversations if they don't increase the quality of our training? I think that if we are honest, we aren't here because we love MA. That's a tiny part of the picture. Really, we're here because we love martial TALK. We like to banter. We enjoy it intrinsically. I know I do. I've not learned very much here that will affect my training. But I enjoy the debate and joking around. I like to analyze my own beliefs and learn to articulate what I know or think or feel.

I hope that the people here are the minority of martial artists. I HOPE that the majority of martial artists are more focused on performance enhancement than debate and discourse. Well they should have some discourse, but not a few hours a week like some of us. But for some of us, this stuff turns our crank, and that's fine.

That was avery insightfull post. :asian:
Sean

 

[markulous]

I agree that debating is sometimes "necessary". But under what circumstances do you consider debating to be necessary?

I think when I am trying to get my point across but at the same time the other person is trying to get their point across. Sometimes I just have to debate to get them to fully understand what I am trying to say and at the same time, trying to understand what they are fully trying to say. I think that made sense... :lookie:

 

[Black Bear]

That was avery insightfull post. :asian:
Sean

There is an easy way to spot insightful posts: They are usually labelled with the pic of an ANGRY LASER MONKEY!

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is an easy way to spot insightful posts: They are usually labelled with the pic of an ANGRY LASER MONKEY!

I'll try to keep that in mind. :asian:
Sean

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Black Bear: You have earned a +1 on your reputation. Good insights.

 

[moving target]

Well I like to debate. I will debate about almost anything. It's just how I think about things, I will try to figure out bennefits and detriments of two sides than cross compare them.

Debate is a very usefull tool when used in a freindly way to try to evaluate a topic, it makes both people think alot harder than they would on their own (well most people anyway). But I don't think message boards are the best way to go about it just because of the issue of speed, and the fact that without being able to see someone's face it's hard to tell someone's attitude, and as such debates can turn into arguments or fights.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Debating would be fine if it were a real debate, played by a few rules, organized around the idea of creating a dialectic that would, in the end, lead to a better understanding of reality and history.

It seldom is on Internet forums of any kind.

Among the problem here is the fantasy that the debate, the contradiction worth exploring, is between "traditional, "and "modern/mixed," martial arts. What a completely dead issue, if indeed it was ever alive.

 

[8253]

Its only a discussion artyon:

 

[moving target]

Among the problem here is the fantasy that the debate, the contradiction worth exploring, is between "traditional, "and "modern/mixed," martial arts. What a completely dead issue, if indeed it was ever alive.

I think part of what prevents these arguments from fadding is that people new to internet boards keep getting involved attempting to express their opinion.

I don't realy think it's a bad thing, just creates a lot of spam.

 

[Cthulhu]

The value of these types of debates is that - on rare occasions - people will present their views rationally and concisely, enabling others to perhaps gain a new insight to the 'other side's' way of thinking. Rarely enough to change your view on whatever subject, but at least enough to get you to see where they're coming from...if just for that moment.

Cthulhu