The Non Spinning back fist.

[JP3]

JGW, I really don't want to hit anyone with the "side" of my metacarpals, or any-thing, for that matter. Owwwww... I have to use my hands to make my living! I know, I "could" do some really neat-O hot sand in a pot training from the old Kung Fu Theatre flicks (really, that's what it was called. Sunday night, on Channel 8 in mid-Missouri) stuff to get my hands tougher... but I really don't have the time, or inclination, anymore.

I didn't even do the spinning backfist with that part of my hand, mine was a spinning hammer fist. It was functional. Worked OK.

Let's see who "thinks" about their backfist the way I personally do. Right this second I'm considering being right-foot forward, typical hands-up fighting stance of whatever variety you prefer, right hand slightly closer to opponent than the left. The below considers my right hand firing with the strike.

When I jab, typical western-boxing style jab, my shoulder rotates counter-clockwise (to my perception, not my opponent's) as the arm extends, the elbow correspondingly rotates in space counter-clockwise, the right shoulder itself rotates counterclockwise as well a bit and moves towards the opponent, and at the terminus of the strike - I'm focusing on 1st two knuckles of the right hand's fist, those two knuckles are also rotating counter-clockwise although I'm picturing them travelling down a straight line into the target.... as the match/fight goes on and fatigue develops, the line generally degrades into a more looping thing, but it still "looks" like a jab. Body slips forward slightly, hip rotation all the standard body movement and mechanic things to develop the power with which the strike connects.

Backfist... is the same "body" things, foot slide, hip rotation, shoulder roll forward... but all of the mechanics in the arm itself are ... inverted (I'm not certain that's the right word). The shoulder socket itself rotates clockwise a bit, the elbow follows the clockwise rotation, and at the moment of impact the 1st two knuckles, though travelling in a straight line (I hope) are rotating clockwise.

As TKD warriors are occasionally wont to do, we tested the "strength" of each other's strikes with... of course, board breaks! To this day, I have no idea what that pine tree ever did to us, that so many TKD people just had it out for it... Anyway, back before I gave up breaking inanimate things, I could break 2 1' sq. 1' thick boards with the backfist, an 3 with the jab. The backfist was quicker to get on target, the jab brought more with it and the internal body torque set up different lower body combos.

 

[JowGaWolf]

JGW, I really don't want to hit anyone with the "side" of my metacarpals, or any-thing, for that matter.

That's where Jow Ga technique differs from how most people train the backfist. The knuckles land first with this technique. I don't hit with the back of my hand for this technique, I hit with the back/ top of my knuckles. When I hit punching mitts with a back fist, you would be able to see knuckle imprints and you'll be able to actually feel my knuckles driving into the pad.

 

[JP3]

That's where Jow Ga technique differs from how most people train the backfist. The knuckles land first with this technique. I don't hit with the back of my hand for this technique, I hit with the back/ top of my knuckles. When I hit punching mitts with a back fist, you would be able to see knuckle imprints and you'll be able to actually feel my knuckles driving into the pad.

Tell me more, I'm feeling a bit flushed!

I'd be able to feel the knuckles pushing through the pads.... oddly sexy.

...lol.. J/KDon't hit me. What you are describing is exactly the way my own backfist hits, though our mechanics of delivery sound different, at the sharp end out there at the knuckles it's same-same I think. 1st two knuckle penetration of target.

 

[drop bear]

Less can go wrong with the hammer fist version. And is a bit better if you clip then with a forearm.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Less can go wrong with the hammer fist version. And is a bit better if you clip then with a forearm.

The purest form of this move just happens to be two people standing side by side, and from opposite shoulder you hammer fist to the groin. The rest is all built of that concept, as far as true motion goes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Less can go wrong with the hammer fist version. And is a bit better if you clip then with a forearm.

For some reason I feel significantly more power from the backfist. I think it's just perception, maybe because I prefer the elbow down.

 

[drop bear]

For some reason I feel significantly more power from the backfist. I think it's just perception, maybe because I prefer the elbow down.

Depends what you hit. A hand pad will react better to faster strikes. which is why uppercuts also just feel goober on them. But a head has more mass and will sometimes react better to slower strikes with more weight behind it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends what you hit. A hand pad will react better to faster strikes. which is why uppercuts also just feel goober on them. But a head has more mass and will sometimes react better to slower strikes with more weight behind it.

I've tried it recently on both a heavy bag (probably 60 lbs, but not sure) and a Century Reactor bag (much lighter). The backfist feels better on both. Now that I think about it, it may be that I'm just committing better because I'm more used to the elbow-down position, so there's actually more power in my backfist. I'll need to spend some more time on the hammerfist - if I'm right, a bit of time getting comfortable with it again should bring the power back.

 

[drop bear]

I've tried it recently on both a heavy bag (probably 60 lbs, but not sure) and a Century Reactor bag (much lighter). The backfist feels better on both. Now that I think about it, it may be that I'm just committing better because I'm more used to the elbow-down position, so there's actually more power in my backfist. I'll need to spend some more time on the hammerfist - if I'm right, a bit of time getting comfortable with it again should bring the power back.

even if I didn't get the power. I would still feel safer paning a guy in the head with a hammerfist. Just on the off chance he meets it with his forehead or something silly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

even if I didn't get the power. I would still feel safer paning a guy in the head with a hammerfist. Just on the off chance he meets it with his forehead or something silly.

Agreed - fewer bones in jeopardy there. If I was going with power, I don't think I'd go with a backfist to the face, anyway - I don't want teeth in my hand. To the ribs, sure. And if I'm off to the side enough to hit further back, I'll want that hammerfist, there - much hard stuff. For some reason, I simply haven't practiced backhand hammerfists in a while.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed - fewer bones in jeopardy there. If I was going with power, I don't think I'd go with a backfist to the face, anyway - I don't want teeth in my hand. To the ribs, sure. And if I'm off to the side enough to hit further back, I'll want that hammerfist, there - much hard stuff. For some reason, I simply haven't practiced backhand hammerfists in a while.

It works in ground and pound for a few techical reasons. So we do it a bit there.

As a stand up I dont like the fact it hits your guarded side and leaves you open to their other hand.

 

[JP3]

Agreed - fewer bones in jeopardy there. If I was going with power, I don't think I'd go with a backfist to the face, anyway - I don't want teeth in my hand. To the ribs, sure. And if I'm off to the side enough to hit further back, I'll want that hammerfist, there - much hard stuff. For some reason, I simply haven't practiced backhand hammerfists in a while.

It's because hammerfists really aren't very "aiki" at all, Gerry. We're getting old and soft. Drop is still out there, fighting the good fight, punching people in the face and cool stuff like we used to do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's because hammerfists really aren't very "aiki" at all, Gerry. We're getting old and soft. Drop is still out there, fighting the good fight, punching people in the face and cool stuff like we used to do.

I was never really tough enough to do that, JP. I was a scrawny, weak kid growing up. I started NGA at 18, and most of my physical development happened while I was in this art. I learned to hit people pretty hard, but our aim was always "aiki". I think that accounts for my shorter list of injuries. I did the "hard" stuff when I was in my teens (Shotokan and Judo), and wasn't really capable of hitting hard. Come to think of it, I think my scrawny nature up to that point is why I got into the aiki arts.

 

[drop bear]

It's because hammerfists really aren't very "aiki" at all, Gerry. We're getting old and soft. Drop is still out there, fighting the good fight, punching people in the face and cool stuff like we used to do.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

So does anyone have luck using the back fist, as power shot? I'm not talking about the spinning BF, but either using it like a jab/lead attack or as follow up for power? Other than for point sparring, I can't see much use in it, as I personally have trouble generating power with it.

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this technique, and if so, could give me some advice on how to set it up, and use it (Keep in mind, this is NOT the SPINNING back fist)

In terms of destructive effect, what can a back fist or back knuckle strike easily destroy? Can it break a nose? Yes, Can it ring an ear? Yes, Can it break fingers? Yes, Can it break toes? Yes Can it smash testicles? Yes Can it injure an eye? Yes, Can it break a clavicle? Yes, Can it crack a rib? Yes Are their nerve clusters in the body it can zing? You betcha, With greater skill in generating and transferring force into another body, more options become available, but suffice to say that using a back fist to knock someone out is possible, I don't know if anything I said qualifies as a "power shot" in your opinion. I personally don't use what I consider a power shot until my enemy is in a vulnerable position, so my back fist tends to come out as an unfolding action of some return motion, like after an inward elbow on one side of the jaw I may rip a back knuckle to the other side of the jaw as I return my elbow to strike a limb and as my opposite side is launching another attack. The back of the fist being weaponized helps, meaning well conditioned for impact but again I prefer to use it to help set up a more powerful shot, It is useful in the same way that a double edges dagger is useful, you don't have to turn the weapon over after use.

Sometimes you can generate a great deal of force and hit someone really hard but you wont knock them out because they saw it coming and their body braced for impact or made microscopic adjustments to absorb the force but other times you can land a strike that is not very powerful but because it catches the body unprepared its lights out. The Back Knuckle is like that, You don't need to know how to smash 9 stacked bricks with no spacers with a back fist, you simply need to catch the human body when it is occupied with something other than absorbing force.

 

[JP3]

Did ya like that one?

 

[Headhunter]

Love the title non spinning back fist you mean the back fist. Reminds me of mike Goldberg saying wow that was a spinning back fist without the spin lol

 

[Transk53]

Okay, here's something odd that worked for me. I'm not sure why, so if it doesn't make sense to you, skip it. I learned to generate power properly in a backfist by working on a backhand chop. I don't know why that worked for me, because the power generation isn't really the same, but the backhand chop was easier for me to get the mechanics right. Then I transferred that "feel" of not depending upon the arm. Maybe it mapped well for me because the chop's range can mimic the range of any of the backfists (spinning, from the heart, and up the center). It only misses the "upward backfist" (my name for a strike that operates like a straight punch, but with the palm turned up - intended to allow use of the first 2 knuckles on a tall person's face, which is useful for initiating a couple of our techniques).

Interesting. It is a follow up to me.

 

[JP3]

A follow-up is how it was taught to be used initially when I was in hapkido as well. An example would be an entry step, with a block of lead hand strike then step in and some sort of strike to the opponent's strikeing limb, e.g. a hammer fist to the forearm nerve plexus, or into the bicep to spasm the muscle, then the same han immediately snaps into a backfist into the side of neck, jaw, nose or temple. Tended to work IF you got inside and your combo speed was up to snuff, otherwise you got punched in the exposed ribs/kidney, which is no fun.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

if i missed it in someones comment i apologize (i skimmed)
a snapping back fist puts out a decent amount of power with its whip like motion, fura uchi or swing blow also uses the back side of the knuckles and can do some serious damage and pretty hard to see it coming