miguksaram
Master of Arts
Well definetly one that fits your personality of being an ***.
The new Creative Poomsae Division at 2011 World Championship
- Thread starter taekwondodo
- Start date
I'm not one to ever say TKD has to be realistic or street effective. If I was looking for effective, I'd carry a knife or a weapon. This is just not TKD. I don't know what it is or what it's supposed to be aside from a grade school gymnastics class, but it's not TKD.
I could also be somewhat jaded in the days of 8 year old black belts and McDojo's, too, but I hate to see TKD at this level.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
You are right, it is not TKD, it is creative poomsase based on utilizing TKD techniques. I hope nobody defines TKD simply on one aspect of it. And what level are you talking about? No one lowered the standards in order to fit this in. If anything if you want to be successful in doing this type of poomsae you would have to step up your techniques.
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
Jeez guys...all this over the "new creative poomsae division"??? Really?? Is the moon full?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I also dislike that TKD has gained a reputation as a sports/babysitting activity for children. Probably a well-served one to be honest.
Time to start reversing directions, I say.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
In my area, there are indeed many TKD schools. All of them cater to children - many participate in tournaments, so significant time is spent on things like point sparring and 'tournament' forms. What would actually be novel in my area would be a school that focuses on other things, like perhaps self-defense training.
TKD is facing a very real 'brain drain' in the near future. The type of hard-hitting pre-Olympic, pre-kiddie TKD replete with close range fighting is no longer taught by and large. The old guys from the time when TKD WAS an effective fighting system are dying off and they did not train their true replacements, as their students learned and are teaching a sportified TKD, devoid of anything other than high kicking for the long range.
Things like 'creative poomsae' only help accelerate the problem. As the art visibly moves more and more into this direction, more serious martial artists will elect to study other arts, leaving a TKD very much a creature of suburban soccer moms - no offense to suburban soccer moms.
It's not too late to reverse things, but I'm afraid creative poomsae just isn't a step in the right direction in my opinion.
Disco
Green Belt
"Well definetly one that fits your personality of being an ***."
Now lets see, you've already called me ignorant and an ***, so what other fine derogatory name are you going to look up now?
Apparently a serious nerve has been touched. Is it because your embedded (literally) with Koreans or do you just have a Don Quixote complex. The rebuttal offered as to where and by whom, was obviously discarded to fit your agenda. You asked for emoticons and you got what you asked for. It's just a shame that you didn't like what was offered........Hows that for sarcasm.
As for StudentCarl........My initial post was totally based on the subject. Someone took exception and has taken it to a personal level. I won't just sit and let someone use derogatory comments and not respond. Perhaps quoting the perpetrator of the hijacking would have been a better solution to your displeasure.
Now lets see, you've already called me ignorant and an ***, so what other fine derogatory name are you going to look up now?
Apparently a serious nerve has been touched. Is it because your embedded (literally) with Koreans or do you just have a Don Quixote complex. The rebuttal offered as to where and by whom, was obviously discarded to fit your agenda. You asked for emoticons and you got what you asked for. It's just a shame that you didn't like what was offered........Hows that for sarcasm.
As for StudentCarl........My initial post was totally based on the subject. Someone took exception and has taken it to a personal level. I won't just sit and let someone use derogatory comments and not respond. Perhaps quoting the perpetrator of the hijacking would have been a better solution to your displeasure.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
The same can be said for the vast majority of commercial schools out there.
Which direction shall we go?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Hmm. A coincidence I wonder? Perhaps that's a good place to start self-examination. Nothing wrong with earning your bread through martial arts instruction, but I don't think it is a random occurrence that many commercial schools are also 'poor' ones, at least by the criteria I use myself. At the same time, I have no doubt at all that their owners have entirely different ideas what constitutes 'poor'.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
Yes, I took offense because I'm tired of always reading remarks on how it is Koreans' fault or the Koreans are the ones doing this. When in fact they are just pretty much implementing a trend that has been started by outside sources (non-Koreans). So if you are going to push the greed factor be fair about. All races have been doing this in TKD not just Koreans.
And why exactly is it greed when you are throwing an event an wanting it to be successful and make money? Have you ever promoted an event before? If you have, did you do it and thought "WOW!! I hope I lose my shirt on all this."
miguksaram
Master of Arts
A lot of people talk about pre-olympic but pre-olympic mentality would have to push us back to mid to late 60's. TKD has been olympic bound since 1973 (I believe), so anything pre-olympic would pretty much be shotokan karate with different forms. It was pointed out on another thread that even one of the top MMA guys was a TKD champion. So how can one say that we are dullifying TKD when there are plenty of good fighters who have come from TKD?
I'm not a huge fan of sport TKD, I respect it and I won't deny that I like to watch a match every now and then but, overall I don't follow that often. I also see where you are going with the liquification of the art to be more kid friendly. So do we do away the kid programs in order to "preserve" the old ways?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Rather more good MMA fighters come from muay thai or BJJ or wrestling backgrounds than they do TKD, so I am not convinced sport TKD is a good entry path into MMA. By the way, I don't necessarily equate MMA with self-defense training either, although for sure, it's a huge leap up in practical training compared to most sport TKD.
As for the karate bit, that's only part of the picture. I am convinced that the Korean martial artists that were around during the formation of TKD were very well-rounded in their technical skills thanks to widespread study of yudo/judo. They had also yet to develop the focus on fanciful kicks that came later during the late sixties and early seventies. That combined with a tough-minded training atmosphere thanks to the war footing Korea was in for decades meant they produced good fighters that could be effective from all ranges.
I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching kids, but a distinction should be made. Too many lines are blurred when the adults and the kids are taught the same sanitized and sportified curriculum and then that is what is passed on as tae kwon do. That's a problem and it's a big one to fix because all sorts of nasty, unwinnable issues like child black belts, sport sparring and empty forms are bound up into the discussion.
I think that you and I have very different opinions and views on TKD, and I can respect that. I can also acknowledge being maybe too much of a traditionalist for my own good sometimes.
You and I would get along very well, I think. We have similar views and goals, despite our differing stance on a few issues. I can be optimistic that I will run my own school the way I'd like to see it run. It seems to be getting harder and harder though.
Disco
Green Belt
"Yes, I took offense because I'm tired of always reading remarks on how it is Koreans' fault or the Koreans are the ones doing this. When in fact they are just pretty much implementing a trend that has been started by outside sources (non-Koreans). So if you are going to push the greed factor be fair about. All races have been doing this in TKD not just Koreans."
I'll agree that all races have been/are doing this in TKD, but let's not overlook the obvious. The Koreans came forth with TKD and the rest of us were tutored by them. What we learned from them was not only the martial art/physical aspects, but the business end also. So what all the other races are doing is the direct result of follow the leader. Now as to the subject of the Poomsae competition. Regardless if schools all over the planet are doing this, the international aspect is a vestige of the Koreans. Out of the clear blue sky, they decide to offer this new venue and you really want folks to think it's nothing more than holding TKD to higher standard. Just look at all the options that they have introduced within the past year or two. We've had the skip Dan, don't even have to show up promotional offering in Vegas. A couple of new competition levels added, Super seniors forms and sparring for the well over 60 group. The Masters courses in Chicago along with what ever other courses they dream up. We didn't have any of these things back in the 70's/80's or even the early 90's, that I can recall. To a lot of us, these are nothing more than money making venues and again, Koreans control the reigns. As I stated prior, your offering a biased opinion and I can understand that, but to resort to name calling is beneath you, I hold you to a much higher level than that. We'll just agree to disagree and be done with this situation...............:asian:
I'll agree that all races have been/are doing this in TKD, but let's not overlook the obvious. The Koreans came forth with TKD and the rest of us were tutored by them. What we learned from them was not only the martial art/physical aspects, but the business end also. So what all the other races are doing is the direct result of follow the leader. Now as to the subject of the Poomsae competition. Regardless if schools all over the planet are doing this, the international aspect is a vestige of the Koreans. Out of the clear blue sky, they decide to offer this new venue and you really want folks to think it's nothing more than holding TKD to higher standard. Just look at all the options that they have introduced within the past year or two. We've had the skip Dan, don't even have to show up promotional offering in Vegas. A couple of new competition levels added, Super seniors forms and sparring for the well over 60 group. The Masters courses in Chicago along with what ever other courses they dream up. We didn't have any of these things back in the 70's/80's or even the early 90's, that I can recall. To a lot of us, these are nothing more than money making venues and again, Koreans control the reigns. As I stated prior, your offering a biased opinion and I can understand that, but to resort to name calling is beneath you, I hold you to a much higher level than that. We'll just agree to disagree and be done with this situation...............:asian:
I can only speak for the Brits (which isn't saying they are better than anyone, I'm only speaking from my own experience) but the TKD people I know tend to be what you'd call old school. There still isn't the huge drive for money making on a large scale though it is here, schools with contracts etc and will possibly get bigger though being a small place we may never have schools where they have a thousand students. Most of the MMA fighters I know that come from TKD seem to be 'non sport' TKD, my friend's club where I sometimes train is hard core sparring and self defence type TKD. Perhaps more akin to karate? he trains children and adults separately which I enjoy, tbh I hate mixed adult and childrens classes, I think it does no good to teach them all the same and at the same time.
The various TKD people I meet on martial arts seminars around the country, which are open to all styles, seem well able to hold their own in the self defence sections and certainly have a good knowledge of techniques. I haven't met any 6 year old blackbelts either though I know they are around, they are usually the subject of media articles. A lot of the senior TKD black belts are very much pre Olympic TKD though, perhaps they keep the 'tough' TKD alive?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
That would be a nice thing if true. Dunno. Maybe it's cultural. Maybe Brits take their TKD more seriously for whatever reason.
A lot of this is expectation-based. My sister put my niece and nephew into TKD as a fun activity to do, so that's exactly what it is to them. Even though they generally work hard when they are in class, it is not something that permeates their lives and so I think there is a very real glass ceiling for them to reach in terms of skill and they've reached it already. They won't get better without making a fuller commitment.
It's also frustrating to me as their uncle to see how shallow their understanding is of what they are doing. No sense of controlling the opponent or their surroundings at all. No idea how to cancel out the opponent's advantages through manipulating height zones or even pure range. No competence at anything other than punching and kicking with a heavy emphasis on the latter.
But you can only lead people to water. You can't make them drink. I'm fairly sure even if their instructors suddenly wised up tomorrow, the kids still wouldn't want it. They just want their cool belts, trophies, and tag games! :uhyeah:
It could be that I gravitate towards the people my own age (the oldies) at seminars lol so I only tend to see the more hard core people from 'back in the day' lol. Perhaps the people who go to these seminars are all like minded when it comes to martial arts, I've been to Iain Abernethy's seminars and they attract plenty of TKD folk.
Everything over here though tends to be on the smallish side, in MMA we have a couple of full time fighters and I practically know all the promoters and fighters there's so few of us though it's growing, I think TKD while being more widespread here than MMA is still fairly small, I think karate mostly Shotokan and Wado are perhaps more widespread. You'd have to ask someone like Stuart A about TKD classes here, I don't think we have the childcare element so much yet, probably because most martial arts classes of any type are in schools after hours or in sports/leisure centres which cost to hire. Few places have their own premises, it's a dream for most of us. I'm not sure at the moment there's much money in martial arts (if there is I wish some of it would come our way!), it will change, we have billing companies pestering us to sign up and get people on contracts. There's plenty of ads trying to sell martial arts as big business so it'll come.
KarateMomUSA
Black Belt
[FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]From my understanding the new Poomsae set up will still require players to do a traditional poomsae. Then they will be asked to perform the creative poomsae which will be devised in Korea by the TKD leaders there. So it will not be an opportunity for students to just make up their own. Rather they will all get the same amount of time to study and learn the new poomsae. This is done to make it better for the observers and create more TKD looking forms, getting away from the karate like ones. The creative poomsae will have traditional moves and techniques, not flips & gym moves. They will also be different each year. [/FONT]
[FONT="]It is a radical new concept.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The post that started this thread included a you tube example of a creative poomsae and what I think is not going to be type in the world championships.[/FONT]
[FONT="]This poomsae was performed to the music of Arirang which is arguably the most beloved folk song in all of Korea, both north & south. The person performing this poomsae is doing so in front of a banner that contains the flag of a unified Korea which is the Korean peninsula in blueÂ… plus the link to the rules shows the rules from 2003 that were to be effective in April 2006Â….I do not believe this to be the current rules that are being proposed[/FONT]
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Karatemon sorry to say you are wrong, they are allow to make up there form but have to use so many TKD movements per form. Also they have not been anything like Karate for a longtime, the TaeGuek are hardly anything to any Karate Kata.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Our tkd club actually attracts students because we DONT get into all the flashy stuff. There is a huge market out there for people wanting "realistic and street effective martial arts", and these people are simply turned off when they walk into a dojang and see people jumping around like gymnasts. Yes, there is a market out there also for the flashy stuff, but you are mistaken if you think a club has to offer that to 'keep their doors open'. Our club is flourishing and its because we focus heavily on the self defence side of tkd, and thats what many potential clientel are looking for.
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