You've got nothing to apologize for. The video was interesting and informative. It presents a truer view of Muslim thought than 99% of what most Americans are exposed to. You were unfailingly polite. If other people choose to be angry bigots that is their problem, not yours.
The Muslim Jesus...
- Thread starter Makalakumu
- Start date
You've got nothing to apologize for. The video was interesting and informative. It presents a truer view of Muslim thought than 99% of what most Americans are exposed to. You were unfailingly polite. If other people choose to be angry bigots that is their problem, not yours.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #22
Thank you, and I would just like to note, something you wrote inspired a new signature.
Anyway, regarding the movie, I really felt that it was a well rounded and positive viewing of Islam. This is something that is so rare in America...hell it's probably rare to find it in English! Watch the movie and see what real Muslim's look like. Watch the movie and mirror image of your own sincerity...
Even myself, as an atheist, saw some humans through the haze that other people put in front of me.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Not to worry. If we don't get that pesky Judaism vs. Christianity vs. Islam question solved once and for all here at MartialTalk, I'm sure the folks over at HorrorMovieForums or BDSMChat or BikersWorld will take care of it.
:lol:
:asian:
Debate on any religion is ever going to produce unwarranted heat because by definition it delves into peoples prejudices and reflexive beliefs.
That doesn't mean that we can't try to have a reasonably rational and polite discussion about such subjects, just that we all have to be a touch more sensitive than usual to avoid punching a persons 'buttons', derailing the thread as a consequence and probably getting it locked.
Until recent months I would've said it would be no problem to manage such a conversation here at MT but things have been more fractious of late and personal respect has taken a hit or two. Still, I am hopeful that calm and eloquent minds will triumph here and the thread will bear fruit worth eating.
I am a near-atheist agnostic, as we've established before and have serious doubts about the social value of any faith once you get away from the root tenet of "Let's be excellent to each other" ... but ... I shall look forward to watching the video tho' when I get the chance (playing with my imaginary cars in GT4 right now) and hope to have something to say afterwards :rei:.
That doesn't mean that we can't try to have a reasonably rational and polite discussion about such subjects, just that we all have to be a touch more sensitive than usual to avoid punching a persons 'buttons', derailing the thread as a consequence and probably getting it locked.
Until recent months I would've said it would be no problem to manage such a conversation here at MT but things have been more fractious of late and personal respect has taken a hit or two. Still, I am hopeful that calm and eloquent minds will triumph here and the thread will bear fruit worth eating.
I am a near-atheist agnostic, as we've established before and have serious doubts about the social value of any faith once you get away from the root tenet of "Let's be excellent to each other" ... but ... I shall look forward to watching the video tho' when I get the chance (playing with my imaginary cars in GT4 right now) and hope to have something to say afterwards :rei:.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Well, I am one of the perpetrators of that. Sorry.
Really though Sukerkin, there has to be a line. I agree with you that rationality and civility are excellent goals to strive for. However, in some cases, as in this thread, some posts go so far over the line, are so egregious, that a stronger response is required. Responding politely to a call for genocide only lends false respect and validity to that call. Such a call requires repudiation in the harshest terms.
No.
What it requires is the attention of the staff.
We rely on our membership to click the little RTM icon, not return vitriol - if the second then two people must be reprimanded rather than the one. Further, we'd hope our members are above stooping to the level of posts they deem unworthy of polite consideration.
That said - let's all cool off and return to civil conversation folks.
G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator
heretic888
Senior Master
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2002
- Messages
- 2,723
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- 60
That's close, but still a bit wide of the mark. I don't want to hijack the discussion, but hope it's okay to clear up a few inaccuracies...
Judaism doesn't have the same concept of "salvation" and "damnation" as Christianity or Islam. There have been various thoughts on the subject over the centuries. What it comes down to is that the fundamental Divine Spark which is part of each of us is perfect and imperishable. But it is (metaphorically) covered with dross. Each of us is entitled to a portion on the World to Come, a return to the Divine. But if one does not turn away from evil and towards good the process of returning to that state is longer and more painful.
The good or evil that we do here in the world has cosmic significance precisely because we are spiritually limited, half blind, free-willed and deal with gross matter. The Kabbalists say that the angels envy us because of our capacity to do such things, to make changes in solid dumb matter and affect ourselves and others in permanent ways. With the world in the sad state it's in the smallest reaching towards G-d can be the pivot on which great things turn.
According to the Sages and the Law Moshiach has not yet arrived. Look in Torah and Talmud for specifics. "But though he tarry I still long for his coming". It's said that in every generation there is or are souls with the potential to carry out that function. When he (or she) does people's eyes will be opened. We will all truly understand and live an accordance with the Divine Will. But it's not "salvation" in the Christian sense, and it isn't limited to Jews.
And Moshiach is not the Son of G-d. He or she will be a human being. There's no need for a human sacrifice. The divide between spirit and matter is a false one, so there's no need for a demigod to bridge the gap. The first Moshiach will struggle, suffer and ultimately fail. The second will triumph and bring about the Messianic age.
I guess a doctrine like that cuts down on the people who want to pop up and say "I'm the One!"
"Really? Let's make sure you've got that suffering and failing part taken care of."
The real difference is one of perspective. Christianity is much more focused on the next life, the World of Truth as we call it. Jews don't hold with the sharp division between spirit/heaven/good and matter/earth/bad. This is the world we are in. Living a good life in it is what's important. The next one is not where we are, so get back to work and concentrate on what you need to do in the here-and-now
QFT x 2
Stop holding back and tell us how you really feel.
Sean
Think on it some more.
Sean
Nah. Holding back is just fine... 'cause not holding back could truly lead to some serious repercussions for TOS violations...especially after Mrs. Ketchmark's warning a few posts back.
Many of you are of the cultural equivalence, moral equivalence, "can't we all just get along" school of thought. I believe that to be a huge error. I also find it interesting that several of you "respected members" have resorted to personal attacks, vomiting up the old standard liberal line of "if you don't like cultural equivalence, moral equivalence, and Muslims you must be a racist or a dumbass or both." Our country has raised a generation or two of pampered, passive, "peace at any price" hand wringers who will let the country go Communist, Socialist, Muslim or to Hell as long as they can have all the video games, techno-toys, music, dope, and sex they can get. I see that group is well represented here.
In Georgia, they grow us at least bright enough to know who the enemy is...the enemy within and without. Nations fall because nobody wants to be bothered with the unpleasant realities of history.
One of you punks referred to me as a "tough guy." I am not posturing. I am simply stating straight-forwardly what I see to be a real problem for our culture and our nation. We have become so soft, so negotiable, and so relativistic that we no longer have the political courage to do the necessary things to survive.
I believe, unapologetically, that Western, Judaeo-Christian culture (Yes, Virginia, there is Judaeo-Christian culture) is the superior culture on the planet and perhaps in history. It is threatened by guilt-ridden, self-hating, angry liberals who feel responsible for everyone in the world but themselves.
Now, everybody, on three...wring your hands, run in small circles, cry "EWWWW Hitler, Hitler!! Nazi!!! Nazi!!!!" Then run for a moderator like the kids in school who used to tattle to the teacher when somebody talked.
In Georgia, they grow us at least bright enough to know who the enemy is...the enemy within and without. Nations fall because nobody wants to be bothered with the unpleasant realities of history.
One of you punks referred to me as a "tough guy." I am not posturing. I am simply stating straight-forwardly what I see to be a real problem for our culture and our nation. We have become so soft, so negotiable, and so relativistic that we no longer have the political courage to do the necessary things to survive.
I believe, unapologetically, that Western, Judaeo-Christian culture (Yes, Virginia, there is Judaeo-Christian culture) is the superior culture on the planet and perhaps in history. It is threatened by guilt-ridden, self-hating, angry liberals who feel responsible for everyone in the world but themselves.
Now, everybody, on three...wring your hands, run in small circles, cry "EWWWW Hitler, Hitler!! Nazi!!! Nazi!!!!" Then run for a moderator like the kids in school who used to tattle to the teacher when somebody talked.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
So then such a person will receive a private reprimand from the staff, or a general warning will be posted. Meanwhile, a call for genocide (or similar) will remain on this site unanswered for as long as MT remains in business and Google keeps a cache. Such an action can only lend the impression of acceptance, or at least casual disregard.
It's your party obviously and I can't change how you've chosen to run things. I just hope you can see how such a policy might look to people surfing through here. There are real names with real reputations attached to this site, after all.
Indeed and all the more reason to respond with intelligence and courtesy rather than equal nastiness. We don't want to drive a bus with all the adults in the back going back and forth with:
"Is Not!" - "Is Too!"
"Is Not!" - "Is Too!"
"Is Not!" - "Is Too!"
While I can certainly understand emotional fortitude and the value of the sensitive nature of this conversation, it commands intelligent, calm, polite discourse - even if the response you receive is lacking one or all of these qualities.
This is my final in-thread warning here.
G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator
thardey
Master Black Belt
As a Christian, and having had some very good discussions with others in this thread (Empty Hands, Sukerkin, Tellner -- Heretic, I seem to remember a discussion on Evolution that ended well, if I remember, you were a part of that one.) I've gotta speak up.
Cstanley, these guys are smart. They deserve respect. Yes, I interpret things differently than they do. No, I don't feel that I am "watering down" my faith by not attacking them. In fact, in attacking, that would be contrary to my belief in living a righteous life. (Which was discussed here in the philosophy section as well.) I've gained a lot of good perspectives that I couldn't find in church, and I thank all of them for that.
Now, if your purpose is to instruct on the ways of Islam, and their imminent take-over of the western world unless the righteous stand up and resist their every effort at breathing. Back up, take a breath, try again, and pick your battles a little better. That is, think long and hard if you're willing to into a discussion that may require hours or days of research for a good response.
If your purpose is to convert these gentlemen to Christianity, Stop it, you're embarrassing me.
So far, the fruit of all of your posts to date have the same fruit of a troll. I'm not saying that is your intent, but I have only the fruit to look at.
To the rest of you gentlemen, I apologize that the level of judgment in this, and another, thread has to come from the perspective of one claiming to share my belief system. I wish I could say that it is not representative of many of my faith, but sadly, I cannot.
As far as the OP, Jesus (Yeshua, Isa, Iesu, Joshua, whatever) Muslims really have no reason to oppose the teachings of Jesus. It's the idea that he is God that draws the line. The rest of the fight is political and always has been. You have to remember that Christianity was married to the government until very recently in history. Islam is still married to its government. You can't claim that everything the government does is representative of the religion, nor can you claim that everything the religion does is representative of the government.
It more often comes down to the idea of "Jesus is ours! You can't use him to advance your religion!"
Cstanley, these guys are smart. They deserve respect. Yes, I interpret things differently than they do. No, I don't feel that I am "watering down" my faith by not attacking them. In fact, in attacking, that would be contrary to my belief in living a righteous life. (Which was discussed here in the philosophy section as well.) I've gained a lot of good perspectives that I couldn't find in church, and I thank all of them for that.
Now, if your purpose is to instruct on the ways of Islam, and their imminent take-over of the western world unless the righteous stand up and resist their every effort at breathing. Back up, take a breath, try again, and pick your battles a little better. That is, think long and hard if you're willing to into a discussion that may require hours or days of research for a good response.
If your purpose is to convert these gentlemen to Christianity, Stop it, you're embarrassing me.
So far, the fruit of all of your posts to date have the same fruit of a troll. I'm not saying that is your intent, but I have only the fruit to look at.
To the rest of you gentlemen, I apologize that the level of judgment in this, and another, thread has to come from the perspective of one claiming to share my belief system. I wish I could say that it is not representative of many of my faith, but sadly, I cannot.
As far as the OP, Jesus (Yeshua, Isa, Iesu, Joshua, whatever) Muslims really have no reason to oppose the teachings of Jesus. It's the idea that he is God that draws the line. The rest of the fight is political and always has been. You have to remember that Christianity was married to the government until very recently in history. Islam is still married to its government. You can't claim that everything the government does is representative of the religion, nor can you claim that everything the religion does is representative of the government.
It more often comes down to the idea of "Jesus is ours! You can't use him to advance your religion!"
{points to post#35 above}
My background was indelibly religious and I have fairly regular discourses with my father, who ever holds dear to his heart that he can persuade me back from my immanent atheism. We shall, I fear, never agree (much as I would like to give him that as the end of his life beckons) but in all our late night discussions we never make the mistake of drawing lines in the sand or making declamatory statements that will only alienate each other to such an extent that the conversation collapses.
Thardey in his words above did much to re-enhance the position of those of Christian faith for the very reason that it puts over a non-fanatical, rational, point of view of the faith (and, no, it's not because he implied I had a synapse or two that fired in sequence occasionally).
Overtly abusing and castigating those who disagree with you merely ensures that an argument will never be settled and that your view will never be even considered as 'holding water' - or at least that's the case in the circles I move in. Being 'polite' in what could be a fractious circumstance does more to get you listened to than being aggressive - the latter might get you the last word but it certainly wouldn't influence anyone beyond that.
'Belief' is a part of the Human Condition, even for rationalists like me. I don't know there isn't a God, I can't prove it; so, QED, my non-belief in him is a faith also in it's own logical way {if that's not a cogently paradoxical sentence I've yet to read one :lol:}.
What you do with your Belief is the thing that matters, possibly even more than what the belief is in and of itself.
What you do and how you behave in defending it matters too and colours others views - that's not a sneaky 'stab' at anyone here, on either 'side' of the divide because we are all human and sometimes our breaking points leap on us unannounced. It's how we move forward from such a point that measures us.
My background was indelibly religious and I have fairly regular discourses with my father, who ever holds dear to his heart that he can persuade me back from my immanent atheism. We shall, I fear, never agree (much as I would like to give him that as the end of his life beckons
) but in all our late night discussions we never make the mistake of drawing lines in the sand or making declamatory statements that will only alienate each other to such an extent that the conversation collapses.Thardey in his words above did much to re-enhance the position of those of Christian faith for the very reason that it puts over a non-fanatical, rational, point of view of the faith (and, no, it's not because he implied I had a synapse or two that fired in sequence occasionally
). Overtly abusing and castigating those who disagree with you merely ensures that an argument will never be settled and that your view will never be even considered as 'holding water' - or at least that's the case in the circles I move in. Being 'polite' in what could be a fractious circumstance does more to get you listened to than being aggressive - the latter might get you the last word but it certainly wouldn't influence anyone beyond that.
'Belief' is a part of the Human Condition, even for rationalists like me. I don't know there isn't a God, I can't prove it; so, QED, my non-belief in him is a faith also in it's own logical way {if that's not a cogently paradoxical sentence I've yet to read one :lol:}.
What you do with your Belief is the thing that matters, possibly even more than what the belief is in and of itself.
What you do and how you behave in defending it matters too and colours others views - that's not a sneaky 'stab' at anyone here, on either 'side' of the divide because we are all human and sometimes our breaking points leap on us unannounced. It's how we move forward from such a point that measures us.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #37
I'd like to respond to the last post and I hope that some of the other members who are surfing have taken heed of Ms. Ketchmark's warning.
Why should only Christians have belief in Jesus? Would this apply to Mormons? Certainly they are Christian, but their faith tradition developed differently then many of the more common Christian faiths.
My point is this, both have different accounts of Jesus' life. Yet both are given different respect. I think we need to realize that the myth of Jesus doesn't belong to this group or that group. Any group can take that myth and change it to fit their purpose.
That is the nature of myth.
Why should only Christians have belief in Jesus? Would this apply to Mormons? Certainly they are Christian, but their faith tradition developed differently then many of the more common Christian faiths.
My point is this, both have different accounts of Jesus' life. Yet both are given different respect. I think we need to realize that the myth of Jesus doesn't belong to this group or that group. Any group can take that myth and change it to fit their purpose.
That is the nature of myth.
Years for some of it :shrug:
The life of every faithful person is a battle between the ego and the Divine. It's hard to break out of believing in what makes you feel comfortable and opening up to the terrifying scrutiny of that happens when one puts Truth before comfort. One common response is to make an idol of one's religion and retreat from anything that might challenge those comfortable emotional ruts.
It's part of the human condition, not the property of any particular system or tradition.
The English-speaking world has more Christians than any other professed faith. You'll see more examples of Christians with the pathology. In Tel Aviv it would be Jews. In Delhi it would be Hindus. In Bangkok it would be Buddhists.
He's responsible for what comes out of his mouth. It's just a shame that some of it spatters on other Christians.
People are people. They believe what they are raised to believe, unless and until someone presents them with information in a non-judgmental, rational format.
Religion is particularly sticky on this point, because so much of what one believes in religion is based on faith - and faith, by its very nature, is subjective; it must be believed, and all of its proofs are based on that belief. If you wish to convince others that your belief is correct, then railing at them, trying to yell them into submission, will generally have the opposite effect.
As far as the video, I've not watched it yet; I teach in a middle school, and all known video sites are blocked. I intend to watch it later this evening when I get back from teaching my TKD class.
Religion is particularly sticky on this point, because so much of what one believes in religion is based on faith - and faith, by its very nature, is subjective; it must be believed, and all of its proofs are based on that belief. If you wish to convince others that your belief is correct, then railing at them, trying to yell them into submission, will generally have the opposite effect.
As far as the video, I've not watched it yet; I teach in a middle school, and all known video sites are blocked. I intend to watch it later this evening when I get back from teaching my TKD class.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
In Georgia, they apparently raise them to relate hate on behalf of a path named after a man who preached love for ALL, not just those who followed him. They apparently teach followers to be intolerant, in the name of a country preacher who publicly chastised the religiously intolerant of his own day (Pharisees, or something like that). They raise their young to spit epithetical vitriole towards other nations in the name of a philosopher and mage who loved so much and so deeply, he allowed himself to be tormented and executed in the one of the worst possible ways concieveable at the time.
So, cstanley, praise god and pass the intolerance. Show us the love of Jesus Christ through your actions, by calling for the decimation of people He loves, and -- according to your religion -- died for. Show us Gods will by demonstrating hate for people he's died to embrace. No, seriously. Keep it up. You're doing a wonderful job of demonstrating the sort of dogmatic thinking that Islamic Extremists used to justify their terrorist acts. Only you're fixin to turn the table, and make them the victim of terrorist acts committed by good, god-fearing Western Judeo-Christian extremists. I suspect you hate what you see in them, because you see the same in your self.
Let's see...fruits of the Spirit:
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...nope. Nowhere in there does it say nasty, mean-spirited little intents towards folk of opposing race, color or creed (look up "creed" if you're stuck there...it relates to your anti-islam sentiments).
Let's try this (again, from your own holy book) "For God so loved only non-Muslims, that he sent his only begotten Son...". Wait, that's not right.
"And Jesus said, "Of all the commandments, the greatest is love...except for muslims". Oh. Nope. Sorry again. Didn't say that either.
Maybe this one: "Beloved, let us love one another. For love is of God, and everyone who loves is born of God, and knows God, for God is love...except for Muslims". Sorry. Wrong again.
Funny how the inclusive nature of positive messages from sacred texts can only be construed to be intolerant if we tweak it, take it out of context, or change it completely to make it say something it doesn't.
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