The major issue for WC sticky hands and Taiji push hands

[JP3]

Thai boxing knees and elbows? ...Sure. Same goes for WC knees and elbows. They do the job quite well.

On the other hand, these days, I'd say some familiarity with Thai boxing clinch work is a really good thing to have. Just like having some grappling experience. Personally, I could use more of both.

Let me tell you something.

I have no clue what WC has.... Nor do I have any reason to doubt that it's got a nifty set of skills at that range using those tools. It makes sense to me that a complete system would have such, so sure. Good on them, then.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Useless if the other guy keeps kicking effectively, or clinch or grab you well when you get close...

In other words, the situation can be controlled by your opponent 50% of the time. So how to deal with kicking and grabbling should also be part of the training.

I have played Taiji push hand one time with a Taiji instructor.

When I

- sweep, he said, "no leg".
- grab, he said, "no grabbing".
- head lock on him, he said, "no brute force".
- ...

Between WC sticky hands (or Taiji push hand) and free sparring, there should be another level of training.

sticky hands (push hands) -> ??? -> free sparring

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you have any videos on good push hands vs. bad push hands?

There is no good PH or bad PH. The Taiji PH is just a "training". The issue is "How to develop more combat skill out of this kind of training?"

This is the PH used in Chang Taiji.

 

[geezer]

IBetween WC sticky hands (or Taiji push hand) and free sparring, there should be another level of training.

sticky hands (push hands) -> ??? -> free sparring

When doing a drill that trains for specific attributes (chi-sau, tui-shou, etc.), limiting the techniques used ("no this or that", etc.) is fine. Then you have to balance that training with free training and sparring.

So when you get grabbed, locked, thrown, or whatever you can learn from it. And, assuming you have a training partner who isn't just trying to mess you up, it sounds a lot more interesting too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When doing a drill that trains for specific attributes (chi-sau, tui-shou, etc.), limiting the techniques used ("no this or that", etc.) is fine. Then you have to balance that training with free training and sparring.

I like to train all my MA skill starting from the kicking range. I will use a kick to cross the distance, use a punch to establish arm contact. I'll call it "entering strategy".

WC sticky hand (Taiji PH) -> entering strategy -> free sparring

 

[marques]

In other words, the situation can be controlled by your opponent 50% of the time. So how to deal with kicking and grabbling should also be part of the training.

Well, I am not saying these styles don't train that. I don't know. I am just saying short distance works great for me, but not always. It is just a strategic option.

I have played Taiji push hand one time with a Taiji instructor.

When I

- sweep, he said, "no leg".
- grab, he said, "no grabbing".
- head lock on him, he said, "no brute force".
- ...

It is not a weakness of Taiji, or of Taiji alone. It is just the way many styles or instructors work, within a ruleset. Easily understandable in combat sports. For martial arts or self-defence, the excuses need to be more elaborate...

I guess, in your push hand training, the aim was not 'winning' by any means, but develop some sensitivity and fine coordination... Taiji people, help here.

 

[Danny T]

Chi Sao is but a training tool for a specific purpose. Good Chi Sao doesn't automatically translate into good fighting skill. Same with push hands.

The pummeling drills (which are very much like chi sao and push hands) are essential to wrestling. But wrestlers don't just practice pummeling and a wrestler's skills aren't based on their ability to do well with just that drill.

There far more to training for fighting than Chi Sao and/or push hands.

 

[Martial D]

The issue is "How to develop more combat skill out of this kind of training?"

In this case, in my opinion, the training directly translates to the real world. Not the techniques of course, it's unlikely an agressive opponent is going to want to settle things with a good round of rolling hands chi sau, but in the conditioning your body receives through doing it. It's just helpful to be able to read and manipulate your opponent when he has grabbed your arm or shirt, should it lead to a throw, a strike or just to disengage and heel toe it out of there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There far more to training for fighting than Chi Sao and/or push hands.

Agree! We try to find out what that missing training may be.

IMO, it makes no sense if an instructor just teaches form and sticky hands (or push hands) and then asks his students to spar,

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I guess, in your push hand training, the aim was not 'winning' by any means, but develop some sensitivity and fine coordination... Taiji people, help here.

Almost 99% of the Taiji teachers, after they have taught their students the push hands, there will be nothing more to teach. IMO, this is wrong. We have to correct this in our generation.

 

[Danny T]

Agree! We try to find out what that missing training may be.

IMO, it makes no sense if an instructor just teaches form and sticky hands (or push hands) and then asks his students to spar,

Two person attack and countering random striking drills; random grabbing, seizing, grappling drills; random takedown, tackling, thowning drills. Then sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Two person attack and countering random striking drills; random grabbing, seizing, grappling drills; random takedown, tackling, thowning drills. Then sparring.

Most of your suggestion can be integrated into the "sticky/push hands" training after the "arm contact" can be established.

For both "random striking drills" and "tackling", you have to move from kicking range into the striking range. It can be considered as "entering strategy" training.

I agree that you can break down into more detail training and develop individual skill one after another.

 

[marques]

Almost 99% of the Taiji teachers, after they have taught their students the push hands, there will be nothing more to teach. IMO, this is wrong. We have to correct this in our generation.

Many Taiji schools even don't go beyond the form 24, or forms generally speaking, used as gymnastics for old people. So, having push hands is already good.

I agree with you, I would like to find more often the martial Taiji.

 

[Martial D]

Almost 99% of the Taiji teachers, after they have taught their students the push hands, there will be nothing more to teach. IMO, this is wrong. We have to correct this in our generation.

Think of it as an element rather than a form of attack. Compare it to learning to roll or fall, or evasive footwork. On their own they aren't too useful, but when combined with the rest of the toolkit they are quite helpful.

 

[Danny T]

Most of your suggestion can be integrated into the "sticky/push hands" training after the "arm contact" can be established.

For both "random striking drills" and "tackling", you have to move from kicking range into the striking range. It can be considered as "entering strategy" training.

I agree that you can break down into more detail training and develop individual skill one after another.

Kicking is a part of 'striking' or do not consider a kick a strike?
We consider punching, elbowing, kneeing, kicking, head butting, shoulder butting all a part of striking.
Timing and set ups for entries are all developed by drilling and then refined through random striking drills. Then are sparred. Visual training happens within the drill as well to learn to see what is happening for at speed there is often little time for arm contact especially when set ups, faints, fake attacks, are utilized. The entry often is concealed by the strike or fake with an angle change and it is possible that no contact takes place but at the instant that a shoot or tackle happens. If you don't see it coming the instant contact is made will be too late.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Think of it as an element rather than a form of attack. Compare it to learning to roll or fall, or evasive footwork. On their own they aren't too useful, but when combined with the rest of the toolkit they are quite helpful.

This discussion is trying to find out what should be in "the rest of the toolkit".

If you are a WC or Taiji teacher, what kind of course content will you prepare for your students besides:

- forms,
- sticky/push hands,
- spar?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kicking is a part of 'striking' or do not consider a kick a strike?

Kicking is a striking. You can also use kicking to cross the distance and set up for your punch too. For example, when you sweep your opponent's leading leg, you may not intend to take him down but to establish that leg contact so at that particular moment, he can't kick you. A " fake attacks" as you have described.

 

[JP3]

This discussion is trying to find out what should be in "the rest of the toolkit".

If you are a WC or Taiji teacher, what kind of course content will you prepare for your students besides:

- forms,
- sticky/push hands,
- spar?

Wang, I'd need to know (which I suppose I would if I was indeed a sticky/push hands teacher) what it entails to BE such a teacher so I could evaluate what I have already in the toolkit with the following two....

- forms,
- sticky/push hands,

I don't know, but from Geezer's post above I can assume that there is some good striking going on, and kicking if someone considers that different from striking from your own post.

Is there both standing and ground grappling omponents? If so, it might be good to go, when combined with the free sparring/testing element.

 

[Martial D]

This discussion is trying to find out what should be in "the rest of the toolkit".

If you are a WC or Taiji teacher, what kind of course content will you prepare for your students besides:

- forms,
- sticky/push hands,
- spar?

-Realistic drills.

 

[DanT]

Almost 99% of the Taiji teachers, after they have taught their students the push hands, there will be nothing more to teach. IMO, this is wrong. We have to correct this in our generation.

There is so much to learn past push hands LOL. Push hands with the circle motion is a beginner drill.