The Legalization of Marijuana

[kid]

Holy cow.
"KID" just made my argument against making pot legal. Do we really want a society of people with this many neurons in search of a synapse?

Peace,
Melissa

Thats kinda funny. So you think everyone that smokes pot or used too is slow? come on give your fellows a little more support than that. I realize that in that story we all made bad decisions, that happens. Everyone in that car can thank their lucky stars that they didn't get in trouble, thats not on our pernament record. And for the record i want to say I am going to defend myself and my friends, we are not slow as you seem to think. Our neurons aren't asking for directions to the nearest synapse. One of the guys in that car is finishing med school soon, another girl finished school and is a writer. The driver i think he finished highscool and became a roofer. And another is now a teacher. i myself during that time i was captain of my high school chess team we took 8th in state. Now i'm going to school and doing well. What you said disgusts me. It was completely durogratory to me and a lot of people i know and that you know as well. Heres a little something for you. Think about this one instead of all of us being stoned, how about something like i don't know, how about all of us being drunk. Whats more scary?

 

[Ray]

...And for the record i want to say I am going to defend myself and my friends, we are not slow as you seem to think. Our neurons aren't asking for directions to the nearest synapse. One of the guys in that car is finishing med school soon...

Great! It's bad enough that a lot of doctors are now younger than me; and now they're dope smokers? Someone with the education of a doctor should certainly know better than to smoke dope.

...completely durogratory to me and a lot of people i know and that you know as well. Heres a little something for you. Think about this one instead of all of us being stoned, how about something like i don't know, how about all of us being drunk. Whats more scary?

From the picture you paint, it's all scary to me!

 

[kid]

Great! It's bad enough that a lot of doctors are now younger than me; and now they're dope smokers? Someone with the education of a doctor should certainly know better than to smoke dope.

From the picture you paint, it's all scary to me!

Hows that make you feel? A stoner has acheived something that it took you much longer too. Just more proof that it's not as bad as you people think. The picture wasn't meant to make you feel good. Its supposed to act like a kick to the groin, for wasting your time against the wrong foe.

 

[Ray]

Hows that make you feel? A stoner has acheived something that it took you much longer too. Just more proof that it's not as bad as you people think. The picture wasn't meant to make you feel good. Its supposed to act like a kick to the groin, for wasting your time against the wrong foe.

Your words are confirmation than that I, indeed, have the right foe.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Tgace in bold:

We can keep going around and around on this.

True. But what little go about we've had has been very instructive for me. You've provided some good stuff, and I've dug up some interesting stuff. Until this thread got going, I'd never given the issue more than passing consideration. It's been stimulating.

As I stated Im not against decriminalization of possession (to a degree), not for legalization.

Which I can respect (to a degree), while still debating certain points on which I take exception.

The whole site, based on a PBS report is quite good actually.

And while public opinion that the "drug war" is failing is increasing, many Americans are not "for" legalization.

Fair enough. There have been a number of times in history where many Americans didn't favor something, yet it came about through vigorous activism.

We do need to look at Marijuana, but in the long run its not really the main "front" in the "Drug War"...More like one of the smaller islands in the Pacific campaign.

Good analogy. I liken it to Pelelieu, which brought needless casualties, did little good, and could have been by-passed by MacArthur.


I still contend that joe college student caught with a 1.5 oz bag in his dorm and nothing else, isnt sitting in the pen....and if a few are, it because they fell victim to taking "guilty as charged" pleas to manditory sentences. Bad lawyers or special DA circumstances....

Which again I suggest is colored by your perception from serving as an LEO in New York, a tolerant state by most standards. I'll concede that a number are there for possession on a plea, but I'm unwilling to accept that some of these southern and western states and their "virtuecrats" aren't hammering people for simple possession.

Looking at that chart again, the 2.7% IS for trafficking. I mis-read. The possession percentage must be the 3.7% although I cant locate that breakdown in the report. Possession is listed as a total drug measurement, which is listed as 12% for all drugs. Marijuana being 3.7% of that I assume. Math was never my strong suit.

To the right of table one, upper right hand corner of the same page, right above the paragraph about sentences for felonies. The marijuana and possession percentages are percentages of all felonies, not percentages of all drug crimes. The 12.6 percentage figure for possession likewise reflects possession offenses related to all felonies. In short, of all the felonies listed, possession convictions for any drug were 12.6 percent. Subtract marijuana possession and you get the percentage of possession charges of other drugs as being 9.9% of the total felonies.

I'm weak at math, too...but my calculator tells me that a third of all the possession convictions are for dope according to that study. To be fair, this doesn't reflect what the pro-dope advocates are saying...but it is still a significant number. The median noted earlier is particularly interesting.

You're right. The PBS article is interesting. I've bookmarked it.


Regards,


Steve

 

[kid]

Your words are confirmation than that I, indeed, have the right foe.

Let me ask you this what is potentialy the most dangerous situation?

A) A drunk person behind the wheel of a car, whos motor skills and hand eye cordination are messed up, with three friends equally drunk.

B) A person who hasn't slept for 24 hours and driving a car, with three friends who are eqally tired.

C) A person who just smoked a joint with three friends equally stoned, driving a car.

That was the point in my ending before. You just chose to twist my words how you wanted to perceive them. And your right it isn't a pretty picture but this does happen. Now if pot was legalized it could have a positive effect on America. Take a moment to figure out the pros and cons of that. People are going to smoke pot anyways, and you or I or everone that doesn't like it can't change that. But you know what, I'm willing to live with it.

 

[Tgace]

:asian:

When it comes to other states and their laws, fortunately or unfortunately thats been par for the course in our nation. While a pot smoker may get a raw deal in say Texas, he would probably get a much better deal if he had to shoot an intruder in his home than say New Hampshire.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Your words are confirmation than that I, indeed, have the right foe.


Whoa! A foe!

Well, woe unto the foe!

What's with this ganging up on the kid?

He smoked dope. He stopped smoking dope. His friends smoked dope. His friends stopped smoking dope. The President smoked dope. He stopped smoking dope. Give him a break, Ray.

Regards,

Steve

 

[Tgace]

Let me ask you this what is potentialy the most dangerous situation?

A) A drunk person behind the wheel of a car, whos motor skills and hand eye cordination are messed up, with three friends equally drunk.

B) A person who hasn't slept for 24 hours and driving a car, with three friends who are eqally tired.

C) A person who just smoked a joint with three friends equally stoned, driving a car.

That was the point in my ending before. You just chose to twist my words how you wanted to perceive them. And your right it isn't a pretty picture but this does happen. Now if pot was legalized it could have a positive effect on America. Take a moment to figure out the pros and cons of that. People are going to smoke pot anyways, and you or I or everone that doesn't like it can't change that. But you know what, I'm willing to live with it.

If legalized, who runs the pot industry? Private business? Then you create another industry whos profits depend on creating addicts and keeping people addicted to their product to make money. If theres money to be made on a vice, business will exploit it. Look at how unsavory alcohol and tobacco companies have become. If not the private sector than who, the government? What problems couldnt you think up there?

 

[kid]

If legalized, who runs the pot industry? Private business? Then you create another industry whos profits depend on creating addicts and keeping people addicted to their product to make money. If theres money to be made on a vice, business will exploit it. Look at how unsavory alcohol and tobacco companies have become. If not the private sector than who, the government? What problems couldnt you think up there?

As far as i am concerned and from the proof of my own experiences with marijuana, it is not addictive. It does put you in a euphoria that people like, thats why people use it. I don't think that it should be owned and regulated by major companys. These are all things that should be listed and made into rules and laws. Chemicals dont need to be added to it. that only happens when someone like marlboro gets their grubby hands on it and has to make it the exact same kinds and flavors throughout the world. What kind of problems do we see know with people on the streets selling it having these big deals on the black market. The U.S gov't is loosing and wasting money on a social club.

 

[kid]

Thanks hard head i appreciate your support and for watching my back.

 

[Tgace]

Im trying to avoid sources that could appear biased as there are a lot of sources that say marijuana can be addictive. My grandfather quit cigs "cold turkey" too and so have others but nobody can argue that cigs are non addictive. Any chemical that induces a "high" will loose effectiveness if the body gains a tolerence, requiring more for the same effect. After a point the user will experience withdrawal symptoms (you should see me when i miss my coffee )

http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/marijuana-information.htm
http://www.cesar.umd.edu/cesar/jf/drugs/marijuana.asp
http://www.drug-rehabs.org/faqs/FAQ-marijuana.php
http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/atod/marijuana.htm

Is marijuana addictive?
[font=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]No one would argue that marijuana is as addictive as alcohol or cocaine. However, it's wrong to say that it is not at all addictive. More and more studies are finding that marijuana has addictive properties. Both animal and human studies show physical and psychological withdrawal symptoms from marijuana, including irritability, restlessness, insomnia, nausea and intense dreams. Tolerance to marijuana also builds up rapidly. Heavy users need 8 times higher doses to get the same effects as infrequent users.[/font]

[font=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]For a small percentage of people who use it, marijuana can be highly addictive. It is estimated that 10% to 14% of users will become heavily dependent. More than 120,000 people in the US seek treatment for marijuana addiction every year. Because the consequences of marijuana use can be subtle and insidious, it is more difficult to recognize signs of addiction. Cultural and societal beliefs that marijuana cannot be addictive make it less likely for people to seek help or to get support for quitting.

[/font]

[font=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]So while Marijuana has a "low" addiction rate, it can be addictive physically and/or psychologically to some people. I admit this isnt a "break it" argument against legalization...just a clarification.[/font]

 

[Tgace]

Personal opinion: The whole "gateway drug" thing with Marijuana isnt so much about the drug itself as the people using it. The whole "look Im doing something illegal and havent been caught, even if I do its no big deal". That "mentality" is the gate to heavier stuff for some (not all). I went to college, I saw a few marijuana smoking people do the "what the hell" thing and try something heavier. Again its not a "make it or break it" point. But thats how I see it. Either put teeth into the law, make it socially unacceptable (like smoking is becoming) or decriminalize individual use/possession of it so the "**** the man" factor isnt so high.

 

[Blind]

Just to interrupt a bit and throw in my ten cents, alcohol is by far and away the main gateway drug, I would lay money on it that most people when they try a drug(illicit) for the first time had imbibed alcohol first.

TGace sounds very reasonable to me, personally I don't really care for the stuff, there certainly would be a lot less unnecessary arrests and court cases for what is for the most part a harmless drug(more so than alcohol anyway-my preferred pastime).

I think that some peoples lives end up permanently shot because of a misdemeanor in regards to weed, decriminalizing it seems the way to go in my mind-spend the effort on catching up with the really bad boys like coke heroin etc.

Part of my thinking though is legalize the lot and that is natural selection right there, more drugs to the right people--see Dennis Leary for that theory, it has some merit, and people who jack cars and commit crimes on it could be executed, they obviously have too much time on their hands anyway.

Last paragraph only half serious.

 

[kid]

tgrace


I meant pot is not physically addicting. Although the high itself is addicting the drug THC is no more addicting than a Mcdonalds french fries. Its all up to the user. If he wants to get high but can't find it, or get his french fries not a problem, he/she doesnt go through withdrawls and start chewing and licking their lips or have a nervous shake in their hands. Its in everyones power to make personal decisions we don't have the right to take that awy from somone. Its no better then stealing from your neighbor. We just dont do that. Now if it became legal i would be afraid that some big corp. would try to take control and sell it. more chemicals would be added to it and mostlikly it would eventually become physically addictive. But this is what is cool about marijuana its very easy to grow. It requires low maintence; therefor, local farmers could grow it, or even regular joes/janes like us. And also i had mentioned that i had quit smoking cigs "cold turkey" It was not easy, and still crave them. Ask your popps if he does.

 

[Darksoul]

-Once again I want to point out the maturity levels of Americans. It might be because of our history so far in this nation that we see the current problems with pot. Legalizing it now, I'm just not convinced America is ready for that. It seems we're not all concerned about people smoking pot, but rather their behavior in regards to the smoking. And yeah, their lungs might not get as screwed as say smoking cigs, but eventually, will they have to seek medical care for their smoking? I practice kung-fu, don't drink or smoke anything, and become ill about once every 3 years. I don't visit the doctor unless required for a job, or I'm on my deathbed. So why do I have to pay a crapload for health care? Yeah, I blame the insurance company, the State of New York, the gov't, and people who don't take care of themselves, who cause their own medical problems. My rates wouldn't be so high if I wasn't paying for these kinds of people. I dish out about $370 a month. Whatever. As for the gateway drug theory, I think that may have more to do with a person's environment, who they hang out with, not the drug itself.

A---)

 

[Tgace]

http://www.cesar.umd.edu/cesar/jf/drugs/marijuana.asp

Physical Effects

When a person smokes or ingests marijuana, THC and other chemicals enter the user's body. The chemicals make their way through the bloodstream to the brain, where THC and the neurotransmitter anandamide bond to cannabinoid receptors. High concentrations of these receptors exist in those parts of the brain associated with short-term memory and reasoning, coordination, and unconscious muscle movements.5 These findings may explain the loss of short-term memory and coordination associated with heavy marijuana use. Marijuana also causes the user's heart rate to increase, the mouth to become dry (commonly referred to as "cotton-mouth"), blood vessels in the eyes to expand (producing bloodshot eyes), and can also cause the "munchies" – the increase in appetite that many users experience.

Long-term marijuana use produces changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term use of other drugs, and can cause behaviors such as uncontrollable drug craving, delinquent behavior, and aggression. Regular marijuana smokers also face some of the same problems as cigarette addicts, including daily cough and phlegm, symptoms of chronic bronchitis, and frequent chest colds. Because marijuana is usually smoked without a filter, the amount of carbon monoxide and tar inhaled by marijuana smokers is three to five times greater than that inhaled by tobacco smokers.

As to health issues...the juries still out (actually hasnt even been selected yet.).


http://www.cancer.org/docroot/cri/content/cri_2_4_2x_what_are_the_risk_factors_for_lung_cancer_26.asp

Marijuana

Marijuana contains more tar than cigarettes. Marijuana is also inhaled very deeply and the smoke is held in the lungs for a long time. Marijuana is smoked all the way to the end where tar content is the highest. Many of the cancer-causing substances in tobacco are also found in marijuana. Because marijuana is an illegal substance, it is not possible to control whether it contains fungi, pesticides, and other additives. Medical reports suggest marijuana may cause cancers of the mouth and throat. It has been hard to prove a connection between marijuana and lung cancer because it is not easy to gather information about the use of illegal drugs. Also, many marijuana smokers also smoke cigarettes. This makes it difficult to know how much of the risk is from tobacco and how much is from marijuana.

 

[Ray]

Your words are confirmation than that I, indeed, have the right foe.

He smoked dope. He stopped smoking dope. His friends smoked dope. His friends stopped smoking dope. The President smoked dope. He stopped smoking dope. Give him a break, Ray. [/QUOTE]
No, the "Kid" isn't the foe. He asked if I shouldn't fight against things that are worse and wait till later to fight against things that are bad, but not quite as bad. He's not the foe, he's a victim.

"The President smoked dope" is seriously bad justification for smoking dope. I'm a Bush supporter and I ain't smoking dope; nor using coke nor LSD (or whatever it was he said on the tape-recorder).

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Here's a link to studies on marijuana and cancer:

http://davidhadorn.com/cannabis/cancer.htm

Cannabis and cognition (thinking):

http://davidhadorn.com/cannabis/cogpositive.htm


Marijuana Doesn't Dent I.Q. Permanently.
17:50 08 April 2002
NewScientist.com news service
Alison Motluk

Smoking marijuana does not have a long-term effect on intelligence, say researchers in Canada who have followed volunteers from before birth to early adulthood.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2140



Long-Term Use Of Marijuana Has Minimal Impact On Cognition, Study Says

Results Reveal No "Substantial, Systematic Effect" Of Chronic Pot Smoking On Neurocognitive Performance

July 2, 2003 - San Diego, CA, USA

San Diego, CA: Smoking marijuana long-term has little-to-no impact on neurocognitive performance in adults, according to findings published last week in the Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society.

Researchers at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) School of Medicine analyzed data from 15 previously published, controlled studies regarding the impact of long-term, recreational marijuana use on neurocognitive performance including simple reaction time, verbal/language skills, executive function, motor skills, learning, and recognition, among other measurements.

"The results of our meta-analytic study failed to reveal a substantial, systematic effect of long-term, regular cannabis consumption on the neurocognitive functioning of users who were not acutely intoxicated," authors determined.

Marijuana smokers were indistinguishable from non-users in six of the eight neurocognitive ability areas surveyed, the study found. The two exceptions were in the domains of "learning" and "forgetting" (failure to recall or recognize), though authors said that marijuana's apparent negative impact on these skills was so slight that "the 'real life' impact of such a small and selective effect is questionable."

Because the studies did not measure volunteers' neurocognitive abilities prior to their marijuana use, nor distinguish between marijuana-only smokers and polydrug users, authors said it was impossible to verify whether the small but measurable decrements to learning and forgetting were due to marijuana or other factors. Authors did note, however, that by failing to control for such factors, they "actually increased the likelihood of finding a [negative] cannabis effect." As a result, they said it was "surprising to find [that marijuana has] such few and small effects" on neurocognitive abilities.

"The small magnitude of the effect ... suggests that cannabis compounds ... should have a good margin of safety from a neurocognitive standpoint," especially in controlled settings, authors concluded.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Gray Phoenix]

So we know that drugs of all kinds are bad. SO WHAT. I know of cases where people died from sniffing crazy glue in their socks. SO WHAT. Either we as a society pay for the medical expenses or not should not be part of this discussion. If I hit myself over the head with wet noodle and need to go to the hospital, I know the government will subsidize my stupidity. Thats not the point of the legalization of drugs. It comes down to personal rights.

Do I, or do I not have the right to eat, drink, smoke, inject whatever I want in the privacy of my own home? Granted, public use is a matter for public debate, but what I do in my home is NONE OF ANYONES BUSINESS. Not shouting, just emphasizing. If I feel like shooting hot glue down my femoral artery, I should feel free to follow it up with Draino, or LSD. Same effect.

We have already begun the process of of having our big flat screens become 2 way monitors for Big Brother. Now that we have legislated what I can and cant to in my home, how far are we willing to let that proceed. Trans fats are bad for you, hence we should make them illegal. Salt, sugar.. caffine. where do we stop the legislation of health?

Everyone knows the drug war is a failure.
Everyone knows the drug war cannot be won.
Not everyone is willing to admit it.
The government cant announce that billions of dollars and thousands of lives were wasted.
The soldiers on front lines cant admit defeat.
The drug war was another Vietnam. We sent our soldiers/police to fight a war we had no intention of winning, because we knew that a demand will foster a supply, but we also needed something to get our politicians elected.