The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[isshinryuronin]

If you attack your opponent like this, your 5 moves combo can always put your opponent in defense mode. If you repeat this 10,000 times, very few people can escape out of your attack.

Just because you drill a combo 10,000 times, that doesn't mean you'll get the reaction needed on the first step to progress to the second, and so on.

The practical truth is somewhere in between these two statements. Certainly, a common reaction to a high attack is to move a blocking arm high; a low kick will draw a hand to move down, thus opening new potential lines of attack. A combination attack can take advantage of this normal human reaction, many times quite effectively.

However, the longer the combo, the chances of landing each additional attack are exponentially reduced due to the unpredictability of the opponent's (deliberate or accidental) reaction. This chance can be improved by grabbing the opponent early in the sequence so as to gain better control of him and his actions as Kung Fu Wang mentioned.

As Jerry pointed out, much depends on that first reaction. The opponent, especially if skilled, may not react to an attack in the "normal" way. Instead of blocking, he may move back or sidestep the initial attack or two. He may move in to throw off the attacker's timing and stuff the attack. The danger of drilling a 4 or 5 step attack is over committing oneself (since you have trained your body to complete the sequence) only to find that by your fourth attack the opponent is now at your back for an easy counter.

Both these quotes have validity with the caveat that "there is a time and place for everything." Having a chance to gauge and evaluate your opponent can make the choice of what strategy to use easier. Does he move linear, agile, flinch and over-react, experienced, gullible?

I'm not comfortable with more than a 3 move attack in most cases (the exception being if I have unbalanced or grabbed or otherwise gained control of his movement). If you haven't scored a significant hit by then, the risk of finding yourself out of position goes up more than the chance of scoring -- time to disengage and reset.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not comfortable with more than a 3 move attack in most cases ...

In my long fist 2 men form (Lan Wu Chan), there is a 4 punches combo (right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook). Every time that I sparred with my opponent, I could always use it to keep my opponent busy and put him in defense mode (not worry about to attack me back). 2 straight attacks followed by 2 circular attacks from both sides can be a very logical 4 moves combo. If I change the 4th move as an uppercut, it will work too. If I can add in grab/pull during these 4 moves combo, this 4 moves combo can help me to set up a clinch. The striking game is over and the grappling game start.

I do believe that combo training can have more value than the sole attack training. My teacher always said that the day that I start to pay more attention on combo training (how to use attack 1 to set up attack 2), the day that my MA training has moved into a new level.

My teacher's young brother is more open to share his personal experience. He told me that in wrestling game, he always attacked the same way:

- Touch his opponent's arms.
- Touch his opponent's leading leg.
- If his opponent resists, he will move behind his opponent. If his opponent escapes, he will move in front of his opponent.

All his life, he had never changed this pattern. He said that the more he could repeat this process, the more experience that he could develop. He would be more familiar with this process than his opponent did. That would be his advantage.

I believe his wrestling experience can be applied in the striking game too. If you can predict your opponent's respond and have counters ready for him, you are 1 step ahead of him.

In Chinese wrestling, the combo training is the 3rd degree black belt testing requirement. It's not designed for beginners.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When you grab your opponent's leading arm and punch his face with your other arm, 99% of the time, your opponent will use his other free arm to block it. If you can predict that (with your common sense), you will have better chance to deal with his free blocking arm (such as to change your straight punch into a hook punch and allow your opponent to block into the thin air).

You attack your opponent's opening; your opponent responds to your attack and may create another opening. You then attack that new opening. This is the simple process in a fight.

- A body kick may force your opponent to drop one of his arms. This will open his face up.
- You use jab to attack that opening. Your opponent may use his arm to block it,
- You then grab/pull his blocking arm and follow with a cross.
- ...

Unless your opponent steps back and dodge, most of your opponent will respond the way as you have predicted. I just don't know any other better way to train solo (without partner).

That sequence assumes that when you grab for his arm, you get his arm, and he's in a structure where that works. That's not going to be the case every time. And sometimes he'll already be moving into his own sequence (which might actually be baiting that combo), so you might not get the reaction you expect, because he's already moving out of your sequence.

You say it more correctly in your subsequent points: "may". Performing a combo 10,000 times doesn't force your opponent into the sequence. But a good combo is built on "may" - a reasonable likelihood of what may happen next.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But a good combo is built on "may" - a reasonable likelihood of what may happen next.

Let me use the wrestling strategy as an example.

How difficult can it be for your opponent to touch his

- arms with your arms?
- leading leg with your leading leg?

I will say the chance is pretty high.

Why do you want to do this? In wrestling, if you can sense your opponent's leading leg and his arms, you can sense his intention. I believe this can apply on the striking art as well.

 

[HighKick]

That sequence assumes that when you grab for his arm, you get his arm, and he's in a structure where that works. That's not going to be the case every time. And sometimes he'll already be moving into his own sequence (which might actually be baiting that combo), so you might not get the reaction you expect, because he's already moving out of your sequence.

You say it more correctly in your subsequent points: "may". Performing a combo 10,000 times doesn't force your opponent into the sequence. But a good combo is built on "may" - a reasonable likelihood of what may happen next.

I would think of this line of thought as explicit and implicit messaging. "May" is considered a possibility and Not an absolute result.
So yes, it is a reasonable likelihood, but not a known result. That could leave a person playing the percentages. So, they better have their 'what-if' counters ready and well trained.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would think of this line of thought as explicit and implicit messaging. "May" is considered a possibility and Not an absolute result.
So yes, it is a reasonable likelihood, but not a known result. That could leave a person playing the percentages. So, they better have their 'what-if' counters ready and well trained.

Absolutely! (See what I did there? )

Training alternatives (both for failed techniques and for alternative responses from the opponent) is key.

I don’t think KFW’s wording matches what I’ve heard him say before, so I suspect his absolute wording is often more hyperbolic than his actual approach.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When you grab your opponent's leading arm and punch his face with your other arm, 99% of the time, your opponent will use his other free arm to block it. If you can predict that (with your common sense), you will have better chance to deal with his free blocking arm (such as to change your straight punch into a hook punch and allow your opponent to block into the thin air).

Depending on our relative angles and structures and which hand you grab with and how you punch, if you grab my lead arm while punching I may

• let you push my hand down but raise my lead elbow to deflect your punch with bong sau
• deflect your punch with a shoulder roll
• move inside your punch to clinch
• pivot to the outside to avoid your punch
• pivot and raise the grabbed arm so that you are blocking your own punch with your grabbing arm
• shift back, free my lead arm, and counter with a check hook in a single motion
• slip or duck your punch in order to move into a clinch
• try to land my own punch first while you are pulling down my lead arm
• jam your advance with a low side kick
• etc

It's good to have some simple sequences that exploit predictable reactions, but I haven't encountered too many starting points that produce the same reaction 99% of the time. Usually I need to explore what sort of reactions my opponent gives me and then build an attack plan from that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Depending on our relative angles and structures and which hand you grab with and how you punch, if you grab my lead arm while punching I may

• let you push my hand down but raise my lead elbow to deflect your punch with bong sau
• deflect your punch with a shoulder roll
• move inside your punch to clinch
• pivot to the outside to avoid your punch
• pivot and raise the grabbed arm so that you are blocking your own punch with your grabbing arm
• shift back, free my lead arm, and counter with a check hook in a single motion
• slip or duck your punch in order to move into a clinch
• try to land my own punch first while you are pulling down my lead arm
• jam your advance with a low side kick
• etc

It's good to have some simple sequences that exploit predictable reactions, but I haven't encountered too many starting points that produce the same reaction 99% of the time. Usually I need to explore what sort of reactions my opponent gives me and then build an attack plan from that.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. A wrist grabbing (fake grab) can give your opponent too many ways to counter. An elbow grabbing (true grab) will give your opponent less opportunity to counter. When you grab/pull your opponent's leading arm elbow joint, a clinch has been established (by Chinese wrestling definition).

Here is what I'm talking about. We both have right sides forward.

- I throw a right jab. you block with your right leading arm.
- I pull my right jab back and grab on your right wrist (this is not what I want).
- I then use left hand to pull your right elbow joint (this is what I want). This allows my right hand to punch you again (switch hands principle).

Since my left-hand controls and pulls your right elbow joint, your right arm and body movement will be limited.

Here is an example (not in combat speed).



Can average person be able o counter "switch hands" when execute in combat speed?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. A wrist grabbing (fake grab) can give your opponent too many ways to counter. An elbow grabbing (true grab) will give your opponent less opportunity to counter. When you grab/pull your opponent's leading arm elbow joint, a clinch has been established (by Chinese wrestling definition).

Here is what I'm talking about. We both have right sides forward.

- I throw a right jab. you block with your right leading arm.
- I pull my right jab back and grab on your right wrist (this is not what I want).
- I then use left hand to pull your right elbow joint (this is what I want). This allows my right hand to punch you again (switch hands principle).

Since my left-hand controls and pulls your right elbow joint, your right arm and body movement will be limited.

Here is an example (not in combat speed).



Can average person be able o counter "switch hands" when execute in combat speed?

So, I think the issue here is that when you show that, I see the elbow grab as the third step in the sequence. A lot has to line up for you to get to that point. So, maybe you have a lot of consistency when you get there, but that's like saying there's only so many responses when you hit someone hard on the left side of the head - that only matters if you can get that punch to land hard on that side of their head.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Depending on our relative angles and structures and which hand you grab with and how you punch, if you grab my lead arm while punching I may

• let you push my hand down but raise my lead elbow to deflect your punch with bong sau
• deflect your punch with a shoulder roll
• move inside your punch to clinch
• pivot to the outside to avoid your punch
• pivot and raise the grabbed arm so that you are blocking your own punch with your grabbing arm
• shift back, free my lead arm, and counter with a check hook in a single motion
• slip or duck your punch in order to move into a clinch
• try to land my own punch first while you are pulling down my lead arm
• jam your advance with a low side kick
• etc

It's good to have some simple sequences that exploit predictable reactions, but I haven't encountered too many starting points that produce the same reaction 99% of the time. Usually I need to explore what sort of reactions my opponent gives me and then build an attack plan from that.

The above counter actions may be effective if the grab is not done properly as it, by itself, does nothing besides tying up your grabbing hand. The key is to grab (a twist at the same time is good) and pull the opponent out of position and break his balance, then immediately/simultaneously follow-up. This will render most all of your described counter actions close to impossible to execute. If I grab your elbow/upper arm, pulling in, down and to your inside, any punch or kick attempt will be negated. Stepping/pivoting as well.

I will guarantee this 90% of the time. The only valid option you mentioned, IMO, is to try to "fall" into the grabbing opponent for a clinch. I have used such tactics numerous times in sparring (dojo and tournaments) and it's most effective and reliable, even against stronger opponents.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, I think the issue here is that when you show that, I see the elbow grab as the third step in the sequence. A lot has to line up for you to get to that point. So, maybe you have a lot of consistency when you get there, but that's like saying there's only so many responses when you hit someone hard on the left side of the head - that only matters if you can get that punch to land hard on that side of their head.

Since you throw your punch first (while your opponent is on guard), I assume most self-defense school won't teach this.

When you throw a punch. Do you intend to

1. punch on your opponent's face (your 1st punch is real), or
2. use switch hands to set up your punch (your 1st punch is fake)?

- 1 is fast and simple. But your opponent will have better chance to deal with your attack (because his both arms are free).
- 2 is more complicate. But your opponent will have less chance to counter you (because you have controlled his leading arm and also use his leading arm to jam his own back arm).

In MA, there is no right or wrong but trade off.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have used such tactics numerous times in sparring (dojo and tournaments) and it's most effective and reliable, even against stronger opponents.

I have the same experience.

- If I'm stronger than my opponent, I'll pull my opponent into me.
- If my opponent is stronger than me, his resistance will pull me into him.

In either case, I can enter fast and a head on collision will happen. That's exact what I want.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Since you throw your punch first (while your opponent is on guard), I assume most self-defense school won't teach this.

When you throw a punch. Do you intend to

1. punch on your opponent's face (your 1st punch is real), or
2. use switch hands to set up your punch (your 1st punch is fake)?

- 1 is fast and simple. But your opponent will have better chance to deal with your attack (because his both arms are free).
- 2 is more complicate. But your opponent will have less chance to counter you (because you have controlled his leading arm and also use his leading arm to jam his own back arm).

In MA, there is no right or wrong but trade off.

I haven’t met a SD-oriented school that doesn’t teach preemptive strikes.

Other than that, I pretty much agree.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you throw a punch. Do you intend to

1. punch on your opponent's face (your 1st punch is real), or
2. use switch hands to set up your punch (your 1st punch is fake)?

It depends on which opportunity is available after I throw it. All of my fights are strikes. I don't set up fake punches. My strikes may fall short or they may be intentionally thrown in such a way to intentionally miss, but they are all thrown with the intent and the possibility of landing. This does not include bailout punches where I stop my own strike because I picked up danger at the last moment. My second attack is where the variation is. Sometimes my strikes lead to more strikes, sometimes the strikes lead to grappling. My second one depends on the technique, I'm trying to pull off and the opportunities that I may be able to take advantage of because of that technique.

- 1 is fast and simple. But your opponent will have better chance to deal with your attack (because his both arms are free).
- 2 is more complicate. But your opponent will have less chance to counter you (because you have controlled his leading arm and also use his leading arm to jam his own back arm).

When your opponent has both arms free then you must take something away from him
Sight: Disrupt Vision (includes striking in blindspot)
This can mean blinding or obstructing your opponents vision. Finger poke to the eyes would be blinding, Hand in the face or redirect the person's visual focus would be obstructing. This falls into the lessons of "Don't close your eyes when incoming attacks come in" and "Always face your opponent."

Balance: Disrupt your opponent's balance
If your opponent has bad footwork then move in ways that force your opponent to use their footwork. This will cause the brain to be occupied with motor functions to deal with balance disruptions caused by bad footwork.

If your opponent has good footwork, then attack the footwork. sweeps, foot hooks, kicks to the shine and calves while the person is trying to advance or retreat will cause imbalance. And will force to brain to make stability a priority.

Push / pull small pushes and pulls on your opponent's structure will force the the brain to focus on maintaining balance and structure as a priority.. The follow up for this be a throw, strike, take down.

Disrupt your opponent's attacks by being an immediate threat.
- Give appearance of attacking first or attack first when your opponent appears to be making the decision to attack you. - This will disrupt his plans and thought process. It will change his thoughts from attack to defend.

Disrupt your opponent's strike mechanics.
Occupy the "path of attack" of your opponent by being too close for strikes or by pushing or pulling one of the limbs into the "path of attack" Example: pushing or pulling the opponents arm to occupy the path that his free hand would take to punch you. Moving into a kick disrupts kicking mechanics.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't set up fake punches.

When your hand punch 1/2 way, you see your opponent's arm moves toward your punching arm. You may predict that before your fist can land on his face, his arm will meet your arm. Will you still continue your punch (allow your arm to be blocked), or will you pull your arm back (let your opponent to block into the thin air)?

You may start as a real punch and change into a fake punch (because you can predict the result). After you have repeated this experience so many times, you realize that to use fake punch to set up a real punch may give you better result, you will start like to throw fake punch as initial attack.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When your hand punch 1/2 way, you see your opponent's arm moves toward your punching arm. You may predict that before your fist can land on his face, his arm will meet your arm. Will you still continue your punch (allow your arm to be blocked), or will you pull your arm back and let him to block into the thin air?

In Jow Ga we have techniques that we use to trigger the block, where blocking the punch makes the technique more effective. We also have techniques where if you move your hand, then the punch doesn't hit your block, it continues to hit your face.

Not all fake punch starts as fake. You may start as a real punch and change into a fake punch (because you can predict the result).

This is what I call "Bailing out." If the punch is real but you stop it because you see a larger danger, then you are bailing out of the punch. A fake punch is more like a Feint. Where you pretend to punch but don't.

One of my favorite punching combos is to start with a jab. 1/2 way of my jab, I will change it into a hook. I let my opponent's blocking arm to block into the thin air. I then hit him on the other side of his blocking arm.

This sounds more like an overhand punch.. A punch that looks straight but comes in with a bent arm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I know a punch that I know has a 90% chance that it will be blocked then I know have a reliable reaction in which to exploit. If 90% of the time people block and only think "Block Punch" then I can be 90% sure that they will not attack. Now your opponent's block becomes an advantage for you and a disadvantage for your opponent.

 

[marvin8]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. A wrist grabbing (fake grab) can give your opponent too many ways to counter. An elbow grabbing (true grab) will give your opponent less opportunity to counter. When you grab/pull your opponent's leading arm elbow joint, a clinch has been established (by Chinese wrestling definition).

Here is what I'm talking about. We both have right sides forward.

- I throw a right jab. you block with your right leading arm.
- I pull my right jab back and grab on your right wrist (this is not what I want).
- I then use left hand to pull your right elbow joint (this is what I want). This allows my right hand to punch you again (switch hands principle).

Since my left-hand controls and pulls your right elbow joint, your right arm and body movement will be limited.

Here is an example (not in combat speed).



Can average person be able o counter "switch hands" when execute in combat speed?

So, I think the issue here is that when you show that, I see the elbow grab as the third step in the sequence. A lot has to line up for you to get to that point. So, maybe you have a lot of consistency when you get there, but that's like saying there's only so many responses when you hit someone hard on the left side of the head - that only matters if you can get that punch to land hard on that side of their head.

Yes, a lot has to line up. Ken McGrew (aikido) discusses Rokas' problem in attempting to grab opponents and applying aikido to fighting. I believe he says boxing is similar in concept to aikido.

At 1:22:38, "I'm really impressed by this quick little introduction he [Steven Seagal] does to aikido. He really explained it in a way that just about anybody should be able to understand. He showed while he was talking. It's pretty effective. So, I think it should be a generally acceptable definition of what is good aikido and how does it work. Some of the things he said was control the distance (the maai), use their energy, never plant, always be moving and take advantage of the anatomical weak spots. That is basically aikido…"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, a lot has to line up. Ken McGrew (aikido) discusses Rokas' problem in attempting to grab opponents and applying aikido to fighting. I believe he says boxing is similar in concept to aikido.

I see this often with folks who train in something like Aikido, but never really spar in any meaningful way. There are videos of "Nihon Goshin Aikido sparring" (my primary art) that consist of two people grabbing for techniques and doing little else. That was what I saw in the video Rokas posted about trying to spar with Aikido. He wasn't controlling anything - he was trying to reach for techniques he though he should be able to do. They didn't work, because that's not how he was trained to use them. Some of those techniques can be used offensively like that, but you have to know how they work that way and how to set up for them. And you have to have drilled that. If you drill only for receiving a feed, then spar by trying to force your way into a technique, you will fail spectacularly.

It analogous to training a teep as a defensive weapon (quick kick to control distance, for instance), and trying to use it with a big step in as a kick the chest. It's just not going to work off that training.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Disrupt your opponent's attacks by being an immediate threat.
- Give appearance of attacking first or attack first when your opponent appears to be making the decision to attack you. - This will disrupt his plans and thought process. It will change his thoughts from attack to defend.

This same effect can be achieved by merely switching stance. Stay in a right lead for a while, giving the opponent time to plan an attack to all the juicy targets on your inside. Then, just before he attacks you switch stances to left lead. Now his preset targets are gone and he suddenly faces a new tactical situation to ponder. Using this, and the tactic you described, a few times can be frustrating to the opponent and throw him off his game. He may not even know he's being led and manipulated. Many wives are naturally skilled at this.