The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[marvin8]

The opponent will react by stepping where it's safe or advantageous, as you step. Yes like I posted "unless you prevent/limit that (another point I tried to make)." Which Jow Ga technique won't be seen?

I don't understand your sentence. However, I have seen people transfer their weight or step and attack (e.g., Donaire), when their opponent steps to throw a punch to their head.

When you say this, think of which punch your are referring to? Jow Ga long fist? Lead arm jab into a vertical backfist into a lead arm uppercut. Or maybe one of the wheel punches . Vertical rising back step odd center followed by long hook?

They eyes will first detect the largest movement and not the actual step. Larger movement hides the smaller one. This includes the step and the incoming step.

Any punch, doesn't matter. Hunt's student and Donaire do not pull arms or chase hands. They intercept your step with a punch to the shoulder or face—controlling your center (not limb), while creating space with weight shift. In MMA, they can use kicks to do that. Again as you step, the opponent steps to a safe or advantageous position.

Maybe @Tony Dismukes can remember if is sparring partner was watching his fist or his step. Maybe he took note of it? He used one wheel punch that I know of. To what extent that he used it!, I don't know

When opponent's notice stepping they will manage distance. If they don't notice it then they will get caught off guard.

Yes, that is why I replied to Tony the way I did (physics). Both Hunt's student and Donaire took a step when their opponent was double weighted. Tony's opponent wasn't by definition.

Your swing missed, because your opponent was not double weighted. If you punch when your opponent can't change (pull their head back), then your punch should land.

 

[Fungus]

Not following your logic. Forget about gloves for a moment (Wing Chun, BKB, etc. do not use gloves). Per the videos (including yours), first keep your wrist stable and straight on impact, regardless of what knuckles you use. Spreading the impact over 4 knuckles will have less potential fractures than forcing to use only 2 knuckles with a bent wrist. Incorrect punching technique can cause damage. Again in karate, your wrist may be straight and stable (good) when making contact with the first two knuckles—because you are stepping to move your head, not "over rotating" or transferring as much weight into the punch, etc.

I guess my logic has these parts

- due to the anatomy of the fist, spreading over all 4 options isn't an option as they don't form a line. Only the 2 big ones, OR the 3 smaller ones do approximately form a line; thereof the two choices.

- from own experience of body conditioning I feel that the more painful punches are where you feel the knuckles digging into you. So for this reason, when I throw a punch, I don't think of throwing a fist, but I aim with the knuckles. So in my mind I am firing my knuckles most of the time. But this is NOT how I think if I punch a boxing ball at the amusementpark, then I found indeed spread the power as muych as possible and just add as much body power as possible behind.

- I frequently also step aside, and hooke behind the guarding arm - back ribs, kidneys, or try to hit the nerve joint in the shoulders back side with one knuckle... and there a vertical punch would certainly hit with fingers unless I am VERY close, I often the hit with one or two knuckles as a angled hook. But the whole body is not behind this punch.

- as I want to delivery pain, if you distribute the force on more knuckles, there is less pressure on each knuckle. So delivering the same knuckle pain from 3 knuckles, requires triple the force? You do not need as much power with one knuckle to get effect. A knuckle strike served to give pain, not to make the head spin. Similar precision as you do with knuckles can be done with the heels when kicking. It stuns the opponent for a bit, not knocking them out.

At least 2 videos explained you're more susceptible to fractures from impacting your thumb and other knuckles from that angle. Hunt (BKB champion) is teaching with the vertical fist. You can do your own research. Both methods may be viable.

I get the risk of boxers fracture with a pure horizontal fist if you hit the hard bones in the head or jaw.

That said I understand there are different ways that may all work. I just seek to understand the "logic" of each perspective. Perhaps the issue is also that my own limitd experice is not drawn from punch the head, but the body. I will experiment a bit more with vertical on the bag to see how it feels.

 

[Fungus]

You just have to put more effort to maintain your fist structure. I use the big gloves without wraps all thee time but zi have actively think of fist structure. One time I miscalculated a rotation on my punch which made me use my thumb knuckle as the striking point. I would have broken my thumb if I wasn't focused on maintaining my fist structure. I'm not conditioned to strike with my thumb like thst. It hurt but it didn't break. I knew right away that it could have been worse.

What do you mean? Mean me you need more structure in a boxing glove?? or the opposite?

If the opposite then its what one of our senseis always recommend training without gloves, both in friendly fighting(where golves are sometimes use for training but its optional) and on heavy bag and he says the reason is that it's better to conditioning your fist and wrist and dont get use to the false security of lots of padding.

I sometimes use gloves not for my wrists but to avoid ripping the skin of the knuckels (which happens) and you get blood all over including your opponents gi. This is why I have the thinnest gloves I can find, that this allows me for form a proper first. where the fingers and thumbs are open. When the skin healed I prefer no gloves

 

[Dirty Dog]

This remind me a question that I like to ask. Does Karate or TKD have

- hook punch,
- uppercut,
- overhand?

Of course.

I have not seen those 3 in their forms.

Not everything is in forms.

 

[marvin8]

I guess my logic has these parts

- due to the anatomy of the fist, spreading over all 4 options isn't an option as they don't form a line. Only the 2 big ones, OR the 3 smaller ones do approximately form a line; thereof the two choices.

- from own experience of body conditioning I feel that the more painful punches are where you feel the knuckles digging into you. So for this reason, when I throw a punch, I don't think of throwing a fist, but I aim with the knuckles. So in my mind I am firing my knuckles most of the time. But this is NOT how I think if I punch a boxing ball at the amusementpark, then I found indeed spread the power as muych as possible and just add as much body power as possible behind.

- I frequently also step aside, and hooke behind the guarding arm - back ribs, kidneys, or try to hit the nerve joint in the shoulders back side with one knuckle... and there a vertical punch would certainly hit with fingers unless I am VERY close, I often the hit with one or two knuckles as a angled hook. But the whole body is not behind this punch.

- as I want to delivery pain, if you distribute the force on more knuckles, there is less pressure on each knuckle. So delivering the same knuckle pain from 3 knuckles, requires triple the force? You do not need as much power with one knuckle to get effect. A knuckle strike served to give pain, not to make the head spin. Similar precision as you do with knuckles can be done with the heels when kicking. It stuns the opponent for a bit, not knocking them out.


I get the risk of boxers fracture with a pure horizontal fist if you hit the hard bones in the head or jaw.

That said I understand there are different ways that may all work. I just seek to understand the "logic" of each perspective. Perhaps the issue is also that my own limitd experice is not drawn from punch the head, but the body. I will experiment a bit more with vertical on the bag to see how it feels.

I believe most of what I said agrees with you. Proper structure and technique are important in preventing injury, delivering power and stopping the threat. Which punches you use and how your knuckles line up depends on various factors including, distance and targets, which were also discussed in Jow Ga Fist and Hooks.

One view is there are only two types of punches, round and straight. Within those, there are many angles on a continuum. In that case, the question should not be "Should I use a vertical punch or horizontal?" Because, that is limiting. You need to ask where is my target (e.g., body, head), how far, etc. Your training should guide you to what angle to adjust to in the moment. Punch through your target. Stab to the body causing pain. Rotate and turn over your punches to the head for a KO.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What do you mean? Mean me you need more structure in a boxing glove?? or the opposite?

Anyone in general who uses boxing gloves without wraps will have to work harder to maintain good fist structure.

You need to ask where is my target (e.g., body, head), how far, etc.

This is what I see most people Moy do. Even in MMA I see things that make me ask why is the fighter using a circular punch thst tries to land like a linear punch.

My guess we'll see changes in the future.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Of course.

Not everything is in forms.

CMA trains combos such as:

- hook punch, back fist (with the same arm).
- ...

I have not seen boxing trains this combo. Just wonder if Karate trains combo like that. When you do this combo, your hand doesn't pull back to your waist.

 

[Dirty Dog]

CMA trains combos such as:

- hook punch, back fist (with the same arm).
- ...

I have not seen boxing trains this combo. Just wonder if Karate trains combo like that.

Backfist is illegal in most modern boxing matches. Karate, and pretty much any other MA, does train those combos.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Backfist is illegal in most modern boxing matches. Karate, and pretty much any other MA, does train those combos.

I know hammer fist (hit on top of opponent's head) is illegal in Karate. One of my students used it in Karate tournament and didn't get any score.

I didn't know back fist is illegal in Karate. Are both downward back fist and horizontal back fist (such as spin back fist) illegal in Karate?

I have seen people use spin back fist in Karate tournament before.

 

[Buka]

The danger of hitting with the last three knuckles is to the minor metacarpals of the hand.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Backfist is illegal in most modern boxing matches. Karate, and pretty much any other MA, does train those combos.

Which is a shame. Backfist should be a part of boxing. I would love to see boxing develop it.

 

[Buka]

This remind me a question that I like to ask. Does Karate or TKD have

- hook punch,
- uppercut,
- overhand?

I have not seen those 3 in their forms.

We have all of boxing’s technique in American Karate. Won’t see then in forms as we do not have Kata in our system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We have all of boxing’s technique in American Karate. Won’t see then in forms as we do not have Kata in our system.

I bet we can find it in kata. It probably looks like something else

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Hackleman says trying to hit with the index knuckle can damage the knuckles more. He feels the vertical hook is safer because the force is evenly spread among the whole fist.

In Donaire vs Montiel, Donaire throws a vertical left hook with lower knuckles.

https://imgur.com/7RXzKMc

Ok yeah we can YouTube all day long, but what do YOU do? What is YOUR opinion?

 

[JowGaWolf]

It looks like the Jion Kata has a hook.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It is. I have often told people with them that one thing I know about them is that they don't know how to punch.

I can’t even count how many times I’ve assisted in metacarpal O.R.I.F. And the corresponding max face fractures that magically happen around 2 AM. Nothing like ignorant dumbasses doing things that wake me up to go to work. Why not save me half the work and just insert and lose a foreign body instead?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You just have to put more effort to maintain your fist structure. I use the big gloves without wraps all thee time but zi have actively think of fist structure. One time I miscalculated a rotation on my punch which made me use my thumb knuckle as the striking point. I would have broken my thumb if I wasn't focused on maintaining my fist structure. I'm not conditioned to strike with my thumb like thst. It hurt but it didn't break. I knew right away that it could have been worse.

I did in fact break my thumb that way from hitting my opponents elbow with just the thumb. It was not my favorite injury.

 

[Fungus]

This remind me a question that I like to ask. Does Karate or TKD have

- hook punch,
- uppercut,
- overhand?

I have not seen those 3 in their forms.

- hook punch ~ kage tuski

- uppercut ~ age jodan tsuki, not used in kyokushin tournaments but that's just because head punches aren't allowed in the competition version

- overhand ~ oroshi uchi

 

[Fungus]

Anyone in general who uses boxing gloves without wraps will have to work harder to maintain good fist structure.

Never tried wraps in any kind of gloves.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Never tried wraps in any kind of gloves.

Just out of curiosity, can you take a pic of your fist as you hold it pointed straight at the camera?