The Karate "Chop" and other "underrated" technques?

[chrissyp]

So this is something i've been playing with...Is this a "practical" technique? I'm starting to think "yes".

For the longest time, i've wrote this technique off, thinking it couldn't generate power, You never see it done in a real fight or UFC, the angles were not right, ext, but then I started to play with it..

And I realized, this is the REAL DEAL!!! You can really generate a lot of power with it and create very good angles....the reason I think people write this off, is the learning curve is high....you have to develope hand strength and toughness to really make it work...

So now that I've seen the light, I was wondering, what techniques do you feel are underrated, or one that took you a while to see the light on?

 

[Touch Of Death]

The lapel grab. Just pull down, and he is in a world of trouble.

 

[chrissyp]

The lapel grab. Just pull down, and he is in a world of trouble.

I agree! This is a big reason why i want to learn judo!

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree! This is a big reason why i want to learn judo!

Or you could just let go. You don't want a reversal. you just want him to fall down.

 

[chrissyp]

Or you could just let go. You don't want a reversal. you just want him to fall down.

Valid point! Touche!

 

[Touch Of Death]

I do have a pet technique, which isn't exactly practical, but some people just are open for the collar bone grab.

 

[frank raud]

The lapel grab. Just pull down, and he is in a world of trouble.

As an opening gambit in hockey fighting, it is second nature to Canadians.

 

[Paul_D]

the reason I think people write this off, is the learning curve is high....you have to develope hand strength and toughness to really make it work...

I think the reason people write it off is because they think it's designed to be used in "real fights or the UFC" rather than civilian self protection from non consensual violence.

Also people think you are supposed to strike with the hand, rather than the forearm.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So this is something i've been playing with...Is this a "practical" technique? I'm starting to think "yes".

Yes, it is practical. It is also, perhaps, underrated. It is not a do-all or a be-all panacea, however. It is limited in comparison to other techniques.

For the longest time, i've wrote this technique off, thinking it couldn't generate power, You never see it done in a real fight or UFC, the angles were not right, ext, but then I started to play with it..

Generating power is similar to the way one generates power to perform any upper-body technique, so there's not really a difference there. The power is there if you know how to generate power with your hips and body rotating correctly.

And I realized, this is the REAL DEAL!!! You can really generate a lot of power with it and create very good angles....the reason I think people write this off, is the learning curve is high....you have to develope hand strength and toughness to really make it work...

The requirement is not so much hand strength, in my opinion. It is learning to use the shuto correctly to avoid injuring your hand.

The shuto portion of the hand, which is the part used to deliver the so-called 'karate chop' is the outer edge of the hand between the top of the wrist and the base of the little finger. There is a pad there which can be conditioned if one desires. So perhaps this is the 'toughness' you speak of. More important than strength in the hand, however, is formation and learning focus. Hit with the fingers instead of the shuto part of the hand and you've got problems. Hit with the wrist, less so but still potential damage to the practitioner there.

Delivering the shuto requires practice to get the form correct. It is not a natural act for most people who learned how to throw a punch or even a kick on their own. It is primarily delivered palm up or palm down, in a curving motion which involves the elbow, shoulder, and of course power generation up through the hips and knees, etc. It can be delivered at several different angles, but it is not ideal for all angles, you have to find the places where the shuto works and the ability to do damage is high.

So now that I've seen the light, I was wondering, what techniques do you feel are underrated, or one that took you a while to see the light on?

Let me take a minute to expound on the shuto first.

As a so-called 'karate chop', it can be used on a neck or a collarbone. I think most people can visualize how that would work. Straight down like a tomahawk chop on the collarbone, or palm up in a sideways motion to the neck, base of the skull, etc.

However, there's a lot more to the shuto than that.

From a basic kamae stance, the hands are generally open, and the shut can be delivered from that position easily. Typical targets - straight up to the base of the opponent's nose, across the bridge of the nose/eyes, strikes to the inside of the opponent's upper arms in nerve clusters, under the armpits, tricep strike, etc. These are short snapping motions that generate power, yes, but not bone-crushing power; they are strikes to move someone backwards, get them to pay attention to the gallons of blood rushing out of their broken nose, make their arm hurt so badly they can't throw a punch, etc. Not power here, technique rules.

Shuto can also be used across the body to balance points. Here more power is required, but it's something you learn to generate and the goal is not to damage with the shuto per se, but to disrupt the opponent's balance, which will be immediately taken advantage of. Think of a shuto, palm down, to the point of the opponent's hip. It only takes a moment to steal balance, but they will recover quickly; this is a setup move to allow you to take advantage of that moment when they are disrupted.

Shuto also creates opportunities to grab, since the hand is open. A shuto block can not only strike nerve points in the arm of the attacker, but quickly turn into a grab and pull, which should complement the movement of the arm - circular. Out for the strike, in with the grab. Again, taking away balance as a set up for the next technique.

Now, as to other underated techniques...

The opposite of the shuto is the haito, which is a strike with the inside edge of the hand. Less common, less useful, harder to implement correctly, but it can do things that no other strike can do. For example, wrap around the opponent's head and attack the base of the skull from behind, by using the arm in a circular motion. Imagine 'wax on / wax off' in a counter-clockwise motion with the right hand, palm down. The haito is the curved area between the base of the thumb and the wrist - a much smaller impact area. Imagine throwing that 'circle' around the opponent's shoulder, and impacting the base of the skull as your arm is retracting. I've done this working with an uke; you have to be very careful, even a small blow is instantly disorienting and can potentially hurt someone very badly. I advise to only try this under competent supervision.

To me, almost all techniques are under-utilized except punching and some kicking. Very few people know how to use elbows and knees correctly or remember to use them when in close. Fewer still understand the concepts of body positioning, stance training, and body shifting. Hips. When I can hip-check someone across the floor after getting inside their preferred range, I have all the time in the world to look for openings and weaknesses to strike; understanding my own body structure, weight, center of gravity, terrain, and how the opponent stands, I feel like I'm at a pot luck. Just take whatever looks appealing.

The most underutilized technique? Training. People stop training. I know it sounds trite, but it's true. I don't care what a person's style is; when they stop training, they start losing ability.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Also people think you are supposed to strike with the hand, rather than the forearm.

The traditional so-called 'karate chop' is indeed delivered with the hand; specifically the shuto portion of the hand. Not the forearm. You can certainly strike with the forearm, but that's not the traditional 'karate chop'.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As an opening gambit in hockey fighting, it is second nature to Canadians.

I thought it was pulling the sweater over the head of the opponent.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Addendum: I think a lot of people discount the shuto because of what they have seen on TV or in the movies, especially the ones with "Hollywood" techniques. They think of the karate chop as being like a hatchet chop. You wind up and let it go. That would be wrong. If one winds up a chop to deliver it, one is going to be stopped. Either the opponent moves out of the way, or they block, deflect, trap, or simply strike you before you can unwind the chop.

The shuto is delivered without preamble. It is not an excessively telegraphed motion. That's why it works from a kamae; your hand and arm are already in the correct position to fire without further ado.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Addendum: I think a lot of people discount the shuto because of what they have seen on TV or in the movies, especially the ones with "Hollywood" techniques. They think of the karate chop as being like a hatchet chop. You wind up and let it go. That would be wrong. If one winds up a chop to deliver it, one is going to be stopped. Either the opponent moves out of the way, or they block, deflect, trap, or simply strike you before you can unwind the chop.

The shuto is delivered without preamble. It is not an excessively telegraphed motion. That's why it works from a kamae; your hand and arm are already in the correct position to fire without further ado.

I blame William Shatner.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I blame William Shatner.

And he never tucked that thumb in, either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And he never tucked that thumb in, either.

Not even once.

 

[frank raud]

I thought it was pulling the sweater over the head of the opponent.

Need to pull down other player to reach the back of jersey. You use lapel grab as an anchor for throw haymakers.

 

[frank raud]

Addendum: I think a lot of people discount the shuto because of what they have seen on TV or in the movies, especially the ones with "Hollywood" techniques. They think of the karate chop as being like a hatchet chop. You wind up and let it go. That would be wrong. If one winds up a chop to deliver it, one is going to be stopped. Either the opponent moves out of the way, or they block, deflect, trap, or simply strike you before you can unwind the chop.

The shuto is delivered without preamble. It is not an excessively telegraphed motion. That's why it works from a kamae; your hand and arm are already in the correct position to fire without further ado.

When I learned the "chop" from Carl Cestari, he said there were two version, short and long. He was a strong proponent of non-telegraphic striking, but once you had made your opening gambit, it was quite acceptable to wind up for a power strike. One of the advantages of the edge of hand blow is that it can be delivered from almost any angle, and does not require a return to the original position to initiate another strike.

 

[frank raud]

And he never tucked that thumb in, either.

Nor should he, as he was delivering an edge of hand blow, not a shuto. There is a difference in the hand formation. If you look at any WWII combatives book,(Fairbairn, Applegate, Cosneck, Navy V5, etc)you will see the flagged thumb. I have a book by Kawaishi(the founder of judo and jiu jitsu in France) demonstrating the flagged thumb.

 

[JR 137]

It wasn't until I regularly started hitting a heavy bag that these "underrated" strikes had much purpose for me. I figured they were all stupid Hollywood/Kung Fu movie stuff.

Hitting a bag, a lot of these strikes were pretty weak for me. After a few sessions and actually trying to develop them, they became incredibly powerful. Not as strong as a solid cross or hook, but just about there.

These underrated strikes are all tools. Using the right tool for the job makes them effective. A properly thrown and trained shuto strike to the side of the neck or throat is going to do more damage than a punch to the same spot. Why? The hand shuto simply fits better there. Why would a fist to the side of the jaw he better? Because the fist fits there better.

Another one people disparage is the crescent kick. Same as above - the first few times I did them on a bag were very weak. Sticking with it, they became quite strong. Far more effective and strong for me than a head height roundhouse kick. My head height roundhouse sucks; I'm no where near flexible enough in that regard.

Moral of the story... Train the technique with intent and it'll be a realistic option. Train it only against the air or even focus mitts, and it'll remain a worthless technique. And learn to actually use it from someone who knows.

One of these days I'll work on making nukite (spear hand) a realistic option for me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you throw a left side kick, your opponent blocks your kick and spin your body to your left. Since your body is spinning, a straight punch will be difficult to deliver, a right palm edge strike right on your opponent's neck or left collar bone will be perfect.

When you use left palm to press back on your opponent's forehead, his throat will expose to you, a palm edge chop to the throat can be an effective finish move.