"The" ITF

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't know about 8th Dan, maybe. It depends on who else from his organization comes with him. But anything is possible. If it were up to me, I would reopen the Kukkiwon's ITF dan assimilation program and give all ITF member Kukkiwon rank equivalent to their current ITF rank. And no, I don't think the systems are too different, and even if it were, so what. We are all one Taekwondo family and we should welcome all Taekwondoin, regardless of their current or prior affiliations. Taekwondo was meant to be inclusive, not exclusive.

Please Sir do not take this the wrong way. I do come from a different perspective, thinking that current up to date ITF standard really does not allow a transfer Dan rank like that. Now of course Gen Choi did of course give out rank to non-ITF & even in some cases to non-TKD people. But that was more of an attempt to grow the ITF or acknowledge their accomplishments. But our system is so standardized (also not a claim to be better), that it would not work & only cause resentment, like it did when Gen Choi gave an 8th Dan to GM Chuck Norris. Now nothing against Mr Norris, but Mr Weiss has worked so hard within the ITF to become a senior master of our Art. There is simply no way that GM Norris knows the ITF way like Master Weiss.
Truth be told that when someone comes into the ITF from outside, the higher they are the more oversight that they are supposed to have from a qualified ITF mentor, but that rarely happens. It also seems that once they got their certificate that they sought out & value, they leave, never really learning or embracing the system. Which to me, ironically devalues the certificate so highly sought by many. So since they left, the promise of their students joining & following the system never happened to any extent. The net result was some hard feelings by those within the system who always tried to do the right thing, only to see some get the real fast shortcut

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't know about 8th Dan, maybe. It depends on who else from his organization comes with him. But anything is possible. If it were up to me, I would reopen the Kukkiwon's ITF dan assimilation program and give all ITF member Kukkiwon rank equivalent to their current ITF rank. And no, I don't think the systems are too different, and even if it were, so what. We are all one Taekwondo family and we should welcome all Taekwondoin, regardless of their current or prior affiliations. Taekwondo was meant to be inclusive, not exclusive.

I agree that Taekwondo was meant to be inclusive, but I consider Taekwondo and Taekwon-do to be two related martial arts not a single one. I liken it to Rugby Union and Rugby League (actually a bit more different to those two, but not as different as Football and American Football).

I also agree with KarateMomUSA in that I wouldn't reopen the Dan assimilation program. I think when it was last open the two arts were a lot closer in style compared to how they are now. I know Kukki-Taekwondo has really moved on over the past 20 years and I can see from recent videos that ITF Taekwon-do has changed compared to how I remember it. I think the two (similarly named) arts have diverged.

 

[puunui]

Truth be told that when someone comes into the ITF from outside, the higher they are the more oversight that they are supposed to have from a qualified ITF mentor, but that rarely happens. It also seems that once they got their certificate that they sought out & value, they leave, never really learning or embracing the system. Which to me, ironically devalues the certificate so highly sought by many. So since they left, the promise of their students joining & following the system never happened to any extent. The net result was some hard feelings by those within the system who always tried to do the right thing, only to see some get the real fast shortcut

That is one point of difference with the way the pioneers think and how others think. The pioneers strove to include everyone, and saw everyone as Taekwondoin. When they look at a Taekwondoin, even one from ITF or Soobahkdo or whereever else, they see someone with common roots and a common background, a member of the family. They look to the things that bind us together, not differences that divide us and drive us apart.

I choose to think like the pioneers, because it always leaves me with an uplifted spirit and attitude. Sure, the person who receives Kukkiwon certification may choose not to do anything with it and instead may continue to do exactly what they have been doing all along. But that is there choice. From the pioneer's perspective, the pioneer did their part and kept their part of the bargain, and did everything that they could within their power to make everyone feel welcome.

It is unfortunate that this would be the cause of bitterness and resentment within the Taekwondo family.

There was a senior Korean born instructor here who only had ITF certification. I introduced him to GM PARK Hae Man during one of his visits here, and this Korean born instructor spent the whole time asking about Kukkiwon promotion, which sort of upset GM Park because he had just met this person.

After GM Park went back to Korea, I wrote him a letter explaining this instructor's situation, that he had many students who were active in the USTU who needed Kukkiwon rank so that they could participate fully. I said that this particular instructor needed help and therefore I was recommending him to Kukkiwon rank that was higher than mine at the time, that as Chung Do Kwan regional director it was my duty and obligation to help as many Taekwondoin that I could. A month or two later, I received a letter from GM Park asking me to give a sealed envelope to this Korean born instructor. I never asked what was in the sealed envelope and did as GM Park asked. The Korean born instructor never thanked me or mentioned the envelope ever, publicly or privately.

Several months later, at a nationals, I want to say in Virginia, but it could have been in Portland, one of the Korean born students came up to me and happily and proudly told me that he recently received his Kukkiwon 3rd Dan. His face was beaming so I congratulated him. He later became our state president and promotes all his students through the Kukkiwon, and has taken the time to learn the Kukkiwon poomsae, even though his Korean born instructor continues to teach using the Chang Hon tul.

We cannot only look at the individual practitioner in deciding whether or not to extend our hand of friendship to one of our family members. To tell you the truth, I did not really get along all that well with this Korean born instructor, at least back in those days. But my personal feelings aside, I am glad that we got him and his students squared away with the Kukkiwon stuff, and I would do it again if given the opportunity.

We can fight about this or that and disagree about a lot of things, but one thing that we should never argue about is Kukkiwon certification. The pioneers sacrificed their own personal and financial stake so that Taekwondo could have a unified certification, and it should therefore be given to everyone, regardless of political or technical affiliation, or how we feel about the individual personally. These are the kinds of lessons that I learn from the pioneers, and these are the policies that I try to carry out when attempting to do my small part for Taekwondo.

 

[dancingalone]

We can fight about this or that and disagree about a lot of things, but one thing that we should never argue about is Kukkiwon certification. The pioneers sacrificed their own personal and financial stake so that Taekwondo could have a unified certification, and it should therefore be given to everyone, regardless of political or technical affiliation, or how we feel about the individual personally. These are the kinds of lessons that I learn from the pioneers, and these are the policies that I try to carry out when attempting to do my small part for Taekwondo.

That's a very generous and inclusive viewpoint. Yet, your post leaves me with the thought that KKW certification isn't a statement of your technical knowledge at all. It's more like a membership in a church parish or country club, which admittedly can be a good thing in of itself.

Is it fair to say that yours is a minority opinion, even if some (many?) of the seniors in KKW TKD share it?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by puunui
We can fight about this or that and disagree about a lot of things, but one thing that we should never argue about is Kukkiwon certification. The pioneers sacrificed their own personal and financial stake so that Taekwondo could have a unified certification, and it should therefore be given to everyone, regardless of political or technical affiliation, or how we feel about the individual personally. These are the kinds of lessons that I learn from the pioneers, and these are the policies that I try to carry out when attempting to do my small part for Taekwondo.

That's a very generous and inclusive viewpoint. Yet, your post leaves me with the thought that KKW certification isn't a statement of your technical knowledge at all. It's more like a membership in a church parish or country club, which admittedly can be a good thing in of itself.
Is it fair to say that yours is a minority opinion, even if some (many?) of the seniors in KKW TKD share it?

Agreed & it is a great viewpoint in my estimation. But Dancingalone makes some good points

 

[KarateMomUSA]

That is one point of difference with the way the pioneers think and how others think. The pioneers strove to include everyone, and saw everyone as Taekwondoin. When they look at a Taekwondoin, even one from ITF or Soobahkdo or whereever else, they see someone with common roots and a common background, a member of the family. They look to the things that bind us together, not differences that divide us and drive us apart.
I choose to think like the pioneers, because it always leaves me with an uplifted spirit and attitude. Sure, the person who receives Kukkiwon certification may choose not to do anything with it and instead may continue to do exactly what they have been doing all along. But that is there choice. From the pioneer's perspective, the pioneer did their part and kept their part of the bargain, and did everything that they could within their power to make everyone feel welcome.
It is unfortunate that this would be the cause of bitterness and resentment within the Taekwondo family.
There was a senior Korean born instructor here who only had ITF certification. I introduced him to GM PARK Hae Man during one of his visits here, and this Korean born instructor spent the whole time asking about Kukkiwon promotion, which sort of upset GM Park because he had just met this person.
After GM Park went back to Korea, I wrote him a letter explaining this instructor's situation, that he had many students who were active in the USTU who needed Kukkiwon rank so that they could participate fully. I said that this particular instructor needed help and therefore I was recommending him to Kukkiwon rank that was higher than mine at the time, that as Chung Do Kwan regional director it was my duty and obligation to help as many Taekwondoin that I could. A month or two later, I received a letter from GM Park asking me to give a sealed envelope to this Korean born instructor. I never asked what was in the sealed envelope and did as GM Park asked. The Korean born instructor never thanked me or mentioned the envelope ever, publicly or privately.
Several months later, at a nationals, I want to say in Virginia, but it could have been in Portland, one of the Korean born students came up to me and happily and proudly told me that he recently received his Kukkiwon 3rd Dan. His face was beaming so I congratulated him. He later became our state president and promotes all his students through the Kukkiwon, and has taken the time to learn the Kukkiwon poomsae, even though his Korean born instructor continues to teach using the Chang Hon tul.
We cannot only look at the individual practitioner in deciding whether or not to extend our hand of friendship to one of our family members. To tell you the truth, I did not really get along all that well with this Korean born instructor, at least back in those days. But my personal feelings aside, I am glad that we got him and his students squared away with the Kukkiwon stuff, and I would do it again if given the opportunity.
We can fight about this or that and disagree about a lot of things, but one thing that we should never argue about is Kukkiwon certification. The pioneers sacrificed their own personal and financial stake so that Taekwondo could have a unified certification, and it should therefore be given to everyone, regardless of political or technical affiliation, or how we feel about the individual personally. These are the kinds of lessons that I learn from the pioneers, and these are the policies that I try to carry out when attempting to do my small part for Taekwondo.

Great post & wondeful story, most deserving in repeating. I think this also shows the attitude that all TKDin should have. We should all work together & when we do we will find that we share more in common then what separates us. We also then would benefit from the additional sharing of techniques, talents, knowledge & experience. This is the way of the martial arts

 

[puunui]

That's a very generous and inclusive viewpoint. Yet, your post leaves me with the thought that KKW certification isn't a statement of your technical knowledge at all. It's more like a membership in a church parish or country club, which admittedly can be a good thing in of itself. Is it fair to say that yours is a minority opinion, even if some (many?) of the seniors in KKW TKD share it?

I guess you missed my post about phases of inclusion. There were three stages of inclusiveness for Taekwondo. First phase was to agree on a unifed name. Next was to give everyone the unified certification, which is Kukkiwon certification. Third phase is to give everyone a unified curriculum. This is the pioneer's way.

The students of the pioneers had a different perspective, the ones that learned in the 50's and 60's. They thought more selfishly. They did not give Kukkiwon certification to their students because if they did, someday their students to screw them over and open a dojang across the street. They did not want to learn new forms because that took work and they did not feel any need to change. They happily took the certificates, and called their art taekwondo, but stopped before making it to stage three. Those that did make it to stage three did stage three in their own way, which was the japanese karate long wide stances. These instructors generally learned the new curriculum from one instructor course and a book. You can clearly see where they got their stuff.

The students of these types of instructors followed their instructor loyally and did not question. They have six or seven dan dojang certificates, and now that their instructor is retiring or near retirement, they find themselves isolated, and messed up, because they do not have kukkkiwon certification. They see the USAT special dan test and think they will breeze through the course and test, only to learn that what they have is weak and out of compliance. So they slink back to their dojang even more dejected and defensive.

the generation after the pioneers, especially in the United States, really screwed things up for Americans. Whenever I hear these types of "martial art" vs. "sport" arguments or traditional vs. sport, or kukkiwon vs. dojang certificates, I can hear the korean borns speaking to their students. This generation of instructor also created a whole of lot of angry students, bitter and resentful by the way they were treated. many students of these instructors began believing in their minds that all Korean born instructor were like that and they networked and bonded with similarly abused students. they then turned their attention to the USTU, and brought that organization down.

We can trace a lot of the ill will and negative hostile attitudes from that generation of practitioner. But getting back to your question, am I in the minority? I guess it depends.

My purpose in posting on this message board is not to convince everyone that my viewpoint is superior or that I am right. What I want to do is reach the thousands or millions out there who believe that Taekwondo is a special thing, but perhaps they could not put into words why it is so special. I want to help those practitioner who are searching for answers beyond their own little small pond and get uplifted by the thoughts of the pioneers, in the same way that I myself have been uplifted. You don't have to accept crappy answers that don't fit and don't make sense. there are others that think like you. Those are the ones I am targeting my posts to, not the belligerent ones who sit at their computer with their arms crossed thinking I am a jerk for challenging everything that they were taught and everything that they believe.

These last ten years have really been negative for Taekwondo. I just want to show people that it doesn't have to be that way that that isn't what taekwondo is about, at all.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

My purpose in posting on this message board is not to convince everyone that my viewpoint is superior or that I am right. What I want to do is reach the thousands or millions out there who believe that Taekwondo is a special thing, but perhaps they could not put into words why it is so special. I want to help those practitioner who are searching for answers beyond their own little small pond and get uplifted by the thoughts of the pioneers, in the same way that I myself have been uplifted. You don't have to accept crappy answers that don't fit and don't make sense. there are others that think like you. Those are the ones I am targeting my posts to, not the belligerent ones who sit at their computer with their arms crossed thinking I am a jerk for challenging everything that they were taught and everything that they believe.

These last ten years have really been negative for Taekwondo. I just want to show people that it doesn't have to be that way that that isn't what taekwondo is about, at all.

I applaud you for your efforts & what you are trying to do. I appreciate it tremendously & have benefited from our exchanges & what you have written. While I am not in 100% total agreement with everything you write, I think you are on the money!

 

[Earl Weiss]

I guess you missed my post about phases of inclusion. There were three stages of inclusiveness for Taekwondo. First phase was to agree on a unifed name. Next was to give everyone the unified certification, which is Kukkiwon certification. Third phase is to give everyone a unified curriculum. This is the pioneer's way.

The students of the pioneers had a different perspective, the ones that learned in the 50's and 60's. They thought more selfishly. They did not give Kukkiwon certification to their students because if they did, someday their students to screw them over and open a dojang across the street. They did not want to learn new forms because that took work and they did not feel any need to change. They happily took the certificates, and called their art taekwondo, but stopped before making it to stage three. Those that did make it to stage three did stage three in their own way, which was the japanese karate long wide stances. These instructors generally learned the new curriculum from one instructor course and a book. You can clearly see where they got their stuff.

The students of these types of instructors followed their instructor loyally and did not question. They have six or seven dan dojang certificates, and now that their instructor is retiring or near retirement, they find themselves isolated, and messed up, because they do not have kukkkiwon certification. They see the USAT special dan test and think they will breeze through the course and test, only to learn that what they have is weak and out of compliance. So they slink back to their dojang even more dejected and defensive.

the generation after the pioneers, especially in the United States, really screwed things up for Americans. Whenever I hear these types of "martial art" vs. "sport" arguments or traditional vs. sport, or kukkiwon vs. dojang certificates, I can hear the korean borns speaking to their students. This generation of instructor also created a whole of lot of angry students, bitter and resentful by the way they were treated. many students of these instructors began believing in their minds that all Korean born instructor were like that and they networked and bonded with similarly abused students. they then turned their attention to the USTU, and brought that organization down.

.

Holy cow. I think I could have just about made the idenitical post made above substituting "ITF" for KKW vis a vis stages and those who did / do the Chang Hon style adopted by instructors from a prior lineage who never really conformed and did so without question and find themselves in "non- Compliance" etc.

 

[puunui]

Holy cow. I think I could have just about made the idenitical post made above substituting "ITF" for KKW vis a vis stages and those who did / do the Chang Hon style adopted by instructors from a prior lineage who never really conformed and did so without question and find themselves in "non- Compliance" etc.

One of the reasons why I sought out the pioneers was because it was frustrating attempting to get information of the later generation practitioners. The pioneers are almost completely different. Theones who I found who thought like the pioneers were the USTU pioneers who were attempting to build the organization. They had a similar big picture mindset, and worked closely with the pioneers to build Taekwondo from the ground up, so their perspective was similar.

 

[dancingalone]

We can trace a lot of the ill will and negative hostile attitudes from that generation of practitioner. But getting back to your question, am I in the minority? I guess it depends.

My purpose in posting on this message board is not to convince everyone that my viewpoint is superior or that I am right. What I want to do is reach the thousands or millions out there who believe that Taekwondo is a special thing, but perhaps they could not put into words why it is so special. I want to help those practitioner who are searching for answers beyond their own little small pond and get uplifted by the thoughts of the pioneers, in the same way that I myself have been uplifted. You don't have to accept crappy answers that don't fit and don't make sense. there are others that think like you. Those are the ones I am targeting my posts to, not the belligerent ones who sit at their computer with their arms crossed thinking I am a jerk for challenging everything that they were taught and everything that they believe.

These last ten years have really been negative for Taekwondo. I just want to show people that it doesn't have to be that way that that isn't what taekwondo is about, at all.

This is quite laudable and I mean it. I am not patronizing you.

The reason why I wonder if yours is a minority view is because I have never had the impression that the KKW was interested in enfranchising the masses, so to speak by the extending the 'Roman citizenship' to all. Otherwise, why not actively solicit transfers/conversions/articulations through publications like Black Belt magazine, etc.

If the KKW really wanted to do this, I'd imagine you'd have quite a few people interested in coming in.

 

[puunui]

The reason why I wonder if yours is a minority view is because I have never had the impression that the KKW was interested in enfranchising the masses, so to speak by the extending the 'Roman citizenship' to all. Otherwise, why not actively solicit transfers/conversions/articulations through publications like Black Belt magazine, etc. If the KKW really wanted to do this, I'd imagine you'd have quite a few people interested in coming in.

That isn't how the Kukkiwon operates, advertising in Black Belt Magazine. Think about that for a moment. I think that the United States has the most diversity, as far as dan certification goes. I think the Kukkiwon people find it difficult to understand, given our history of uniting behind a common cause, and the fact that the name of our country begins with a word that some Americans find does not apply to Taekwondo.

I think it depends on who is in a leadership position. I know that President Seung Wan LEE was very serious about bringing in as many Taekwondoin into the Kukkiwon family as possible. I don't know if President KANG Won Sik feels the same way. Nobody knows what his agenda is, other than to make the Kukkiwon subservient to the WTF, when actually it is supposed to be the other way around. Kukkiwon sets the standard, and WTF follows that standard.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

That isn't how the Kukkiwon operates, advertising in Black Belt Magazine. Think about that for a moment. I think that the United States has the most diversity, as far as dan certification goes. I think the Kukkiwon people find it difficult to understand, given our history of uniting behind a common cause, and the fact that the name of our country begins with a word that some Americans find does not apply to Taekwondo.

Yes but I would think that those in America that runs schools for profit may find it more profitable to make & issue their own certificates

I think it depends on who is in a leadership position. I know that President Seung Wan LEE was very serious about bringing in as many Taekwondoin into the Kukkiwon family as possible. I don't know if President KANG Won Sik feels the same way. Nobody knows what his agenda is, other than to make the Kukkiwon subservient to the WTF, when actually it is supposed to be the other way around. Kukkiwon sets the standard, and WTF follows that standard.

I think I agree from a technical standpoint. However I am sure that the south Korean govt is more concerned about TKD from an Olympic standpoint. As such, maybe they think it is better to have the IF for the IOC run TKD, with the KKW doing what the WTF thinks needs to be done for the Olympics. Just a thought

 

[dancingalone]

That isn't how the Kukkiwon operates, advertising in Black Belt Magazine. Think about that for a moment. I think that the United States has the most diversity, as far as dan certification goes. I think the Kukkiwon people find it difficult to understand, given our history of uniting behind a common cause, and the fact that the name of our country begins with a word that some Americans find does not apply to Taekwondo.

I don't know how the KKW operates. But I do know how to get a message across in an expedient a fashion as possible. If I were in a charge of a KKW 'unification' campaign in the US, I would take out ads in Black Belt as well as any other martial arts publications like Inside Kung Fu, etc. And major newspapers like the NYT or the Dallas Morning News or USA Today, too. Give out a general message that an invitation is made for all to 'come home' and then give contact information where interested prospects can talk with a welcoming liason to get more details about the logistics.

I honestly think you'd get more leads than you know what to do with. After all, there's a reason why those smaller TKD federations continue to run their ads in Black Belt month after month. They must be getting a reasonable return for their dollars.

That's me however. KKW people who live on the other side of the world might have different ideas or goals entirely.

I think it depends on who is in a leadership position. I know that President Seung Wan LEE was very serious about bringing in as many Taekwondoin into the Kukkiwon family as possible. I don't know if President KANG Won Sik feels the same way. Nobody knows what his agenda is, other than to make the Kukkiwon subservient to the WTF, when actually it is supposed to be the other way around. Kukkiwon sets the standard, and WTF follows that standard.

For what it's worth, I think the rank-and-file KKW members are content with the way things are. The local KKW 6th dan told me in a recent conversation something to the gist of 'You want be part of Kukkiwon, you do things Kukkiwon way' when we had a conversation about the story you related about Lee, H.U. negotiating to obtain KKW recognition for his people. He wasn't familiar with the effort understandably, but he did feel any conversion made should be genuine with the new arrivals learning and following KKW technique.

 

[puunui]

If I were in a charge of a KKW 'unification' campaign in the US, I would take out ads in Black Belt as well as any other martial arts publications like Inside Kung Fu, etc.

There was a plan in place on the assimilating non-Kukkiwon practitioners. We didn't want to do the shotgun approach, given how that method failed miserably at the US Open special kukkiwon test.

For what it's worth, I think the rank-and-file KKW members are content with the way things are. The local KKW 6th dan told me in a recent conversation something to the gist of 'You want be part of Kukkiwon, you do things Kukkiwon way' when we had a conversation about the story you related about Lee, H.U. negotiating to obtain KKW recognition for his people. He wasn't familiar with the effort understandably, but he did feel any conversion made should be genuine with the new arrivals learning and following KKW technique.

Yes, many non-pioneer types and their students have highly critical and judgmental attitudes regarding who should and should not receive Kukkiwon promotions, attitudes that the pioneers who created the Kukkiwon do not share.

 

[leadleg]

Puunui,who would not qualify for KKW promotion then,if requirements are not necessary. Will you sign off on anyone who comes looking for KKW regardless of their knowledge.

 

[puunui]

Puunui,who would not qualify for KKW promotion then,if requirements are not necessary. Will you sign off on anyone who comes looking for KKW regardless of their knowledge.

I decline people who have disrespectful attitudes towards their seniors, including but not limited to the pioneers. I find that most, or all, of the problems that we have in Taekwondo today is because of disrespect from juniors to seniors. That type of practitioner can die on the vine as far as I am concerned.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I decline people who have disrespectful attitudes towards their seniors, including but not limited to the pioneers. I find that most, or all, of the problems that we have in Taekwondo today is because of disrespect from juniors to seniors. That type of practitioner can die on the vine as far as I am concerned.

What if the seniors have proven themselves unworthy of respect? I know of 3 3rd Dans of my school, people that in theory I could learn something from, that have been banned from stepping foot inside the dojang by 2 2nd Dan. Bans that I will uphold should I ever see any of those men try to come into my class. Those men showed up randomly a few times and tried to force the people that had been teaching the class, whose names were on the books at the Y as the instructors, to hand things over because they were higher rank. Mind you, these guys hadn't been around but maybe once a year at best, and were poorly thought of by my own instructors. But they were our seniors.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

There was a plan in place on the assimilating non-Kukkiwon practitioners. We didn't want to do the shotgun approach, given how that method failed miserably at the US Open special kukkiwon test.

Sir in your valued view, why did this event fall short?
What if anything could have made it better?

 

[puunui]

What if the seniors have proven themselves unworthy of respect?

It's not for the junior to determine whether a senior is worthy of respect or not, especially within the same school.