"The" ITF

[dancingalone]

I did not realize that the USTF used the same form set that I know/practice. Nothing more, nothing less. I've put on hold my search for a 'home org', I did find someone to work out with but physically I'm farther out than I thought I was. I may ask you down the road for some info, but it's not something I'll need in the forseeable future.

The USTF has direct ITF lineage, meaning they likely follow General Choi's teachings closely if Mr. Weiss is any gauge.

If you have an ATA-linked background as I believe you do, you probably will find their expression of TKD very different from your own in terms of vocabulary, culture, even some mechanics.

That is not a bad thing at all. But if you're looking to stay in your comfort zone, I'd look for one of the numerous ATA splinter groups to join instead. I recently took in two students that come from your neck of the woods. They were members of a organization called the Choong Sil TKD Federation. They exhibit technique that is almost identical to what my niece and nephew practice in the ATA, except they still use the Choi forms, albeit practiced in a non-ITF fashion. :uhyeah:

 

[Earl Weiss]

. I recently took in two students that come from your neck of the woods. They were members of a organization called the Choong Sil TKD Federation. They exhibit technique that is almost identical to what my niece and nephew practice in the ATA, except they still use the Choi forms, albeit practiced in a non-ITF fashion. :uhyeah:

The Choong Sil federation is headed by GM Hardin
http://www.choongsil.com/

Nice gentleman who says he was an ITF 6th Dan. He had a student here running a club and we became friendly. When GM Hardin came to town about 12 years ago I attended his class.
He acknowledged making changes to the Chang Hon patterns. I asked if the changes were written down. He said "No, my students no what they are. " I have found this to be problematic. Not making changes, but not writing stuff down. As a famous man once said, "the shortest pencil is better than the longest memory" I'd tell you who said it, but I forgot and didn't write it down.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I am curious. Did ITF, while Choi was around, have elections to determine the President of the organization?

Gen Choi stood for election every time his term was up. However no one ran against him. Those that coaxed him to step aside because of his politics (Korean), were soon gone from the ITF.
I understand that Dr. Kim operated in a somewhat similiar fashion, but for all 3 presidencies he held, KTA, KKW & WTF.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Every two years at the world Champs there was a congress and General Choi was elected. As far as I know he was always unopposed. I was in Rimini and spoke with people who were at the congress.

Info I rec'd was that someone nominated the son to run against the father which made for an uncomfortable situation. This situation was purportedly resolved by electing General Choi for a two year term and electing the son to succeed him at the end of the two years which was something not provided for by the constitution but it would have at least set the stage for an prrderly transition.

The spit hit the fan soon after.

I think the presidental term was for 6 years. The ITF under GM Tratenburg shortened it to 4 years

 

[KarateMomUSA]

GM Choi, Jung Hwa was elected in 2001 in Rimini, Italy while Gen. Choi was still alive. I wasn't there but, IIRC, he said he wouldn't run against his father and was only elected after Gen. Choi retired. Gen. Choi agreed to serve an additional two years and then his son would take over (this was also voted on and the then legal consul of the ITF stated it was within the bounds of the ITF constitution due to parlimentarian procedure).

Shortly after being elected GM Choi told the North Koreans that he welcomed them as a member nation of the ITF but that they would weild no undue political influence over the organization. Some people weren't too happy about this. Lots of pressure brought to bear on other people.

Gen. Choi then states that because of an impending ITF-WTF merger he would stay on as head of the ITF for a full six year term. GM Choi publicizes a communique from the Secretary General of the WTF saying there were no unification talks between the two organizations. This understandably irritates people to no end. GM Choi (and several of his supporters) are unceremoniously expelled from the ITF. GM Choi points out that this expulsion didn't follow the ITF's constitutonal procedure and so sets up a parallel executive in Canada as Acting President.

Meanwhile, Gen. Choi's health continues to deteriorate die to stomach cancer. He petitions both NK and SK to be allowed to enter the country basically to die. SK refuses, NK accepts. He goes to Pyongyang and enters a hospital. Several of his supporters witness him appointing Prof. Chang Ung, a NK IOC member, as next ITF President. Some supporters who were there have come out and said Gen. Choi was speaking very quietly and a NK interpreter was telling them what he said but none of them have disputed this appointment.

100 days after Gen. Choi's death there is a memorial service for the General. The ITF representatives who go to the memorial find themselves suddenlly the members of a "Special Congress" that is called to elect Prof. Chang Ung. There are disputes about whether or not there are enough members present for a legitimate quorum. There was certainly no advanced notice such as is called for in the ITF constitution. There are also people who have said that the election consisted of GM Rhee, Ki Ha intriducing Prof. Ung and the ITF members clapping as he was introduced and that was taken as unanimous consent of his election. Understandably, this iritates some people, so...

The ITF delegates return home and many of them decide that since this "Special Congress" wasn't in following with the ITF constitution they would have their own election at the World Championships that were to soon follow (though it should be pointed out that they were quite willing to accept the expulsion of GM Choi even though it didn't follow the procedures set out in the ITF constitution). In the interim Senior VP Russell MacClellan served as Acting President. At the WC a few months later GM Tran, Trieu Quan is elected the President of this group.

The rest is, as they say, history.

Pax,

Chris

This is a fairly good account. However the election was pre-planned in Italy, 2001. A coup orchestrated that caught Gen Choi & the others by surprise.

Actually the letter faxed from the WTF stated that there were never merger talks between the ITF & WTF, which is completely false, as there was a signed merger agreement in the early 1980s that the 2 groups worked out with the help of the Korean Consulate in Vancover BC Canada. It was actually signed by the 2 Secty Genls, but was never implemented by Dr Kim. There is some specualtion that he just used the paperto appease IOC members. But what is important to know, is that the 1st summitt ever between the 2 Koreas resulted in 10 points to be worked on, with #8 being TKD merger of north & south Korea, which means ITF & WTF, along with the exchange of demo teams which also took place. So there were most definately merger talks at even a higher level that the WTF.

I also do not think that Master Choi (son) was expelled from the ITF. He was removed from the Secty Genl position & the election results were illegally over turned. Master Choi then resigned from the ITF, which in hindsight was a mistake, as he would have thenbee the next president in 2003, as decided, thereby negating the need for any other elections in 2003.

I also think that some wrongly think that his dying wish was a last minute whisper. It doesn't appear that this was the case. It happened over a period of time, with several people weighing in on it & discussing it. It also is pretty apparent that his exact wishes & instructions were no followed, other than Prof Chag Ung succeeding him.

A lot of this was hashed out in the courts, with GM Tratenburgh's ITF winning cases against Master Choi's ITF in Canadian courts of different levels. They have also won several cases, including the last one in Vienna Austria, home of the ITF since 1985, against the ITF led by IOC Member Mr Chang, PhD. The latest court ruled that the ITF Congress in Poland (2003) was the official Congress, not the improper one in Pyongyang (2002) or the one that they moved without authorization to Greece in 2003.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I also do not think that Master Choi (son) was expelled from the ITF. He was removed from the Secty Genl position & the election results were illegally over turned. Master Choi then resigned from the ITF, which in hindsight was a mistake, as he would have thenbee the next president in 2003, as decided, thereby negating the need for any other elections in 2003.

.

This is partly opinion and partly just wrong.

A special congress was properly called and action taken to remove the son. This was not an "Illegal" overturning of the election process. People might argue which delegations were properly seated or recognized.

I may have papers somewhere about expulsions. I will have to check.

Hindsight is always 20/20

 

[KarateMomUSA]

This is partly opinion and partly just wrong.

A special congress was properly called and action taken to remove the son. This was not an "Illegal" overturning of the election process. People might argue which delegations were properly seated or recognized.

I may have papers somewhere about expulsions. I will have to check.

Hindsight is always 20/20

Definately partly opionion & hindsight is always 20-20. I know, sort of like monday morning quarterbacking. But I thought that not enough notice was given for the meeting & that the required quorum or not enough members showed up to make it a proper meeting?
Then of course, members, actual heads of NGBs, were not allowed in to what was suppossed to be an official ITF meeting. These were naturally members that were loyal to Master Choi. Additionally, Master Choi, the current Secty Genl of the ITF was not allowed in. How was that a proper meeting?
Are there not provisions in the constitution that must be followed for a procedure to be considered proper or "by the book"?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Definately partly opionion & hindsight is always 20-20. I know, sort of like monday morning quarterbacking. But I thought that not enough notice was given for the meeting & that the required quorum or not enough members showed up to make it a proper meeting?
Then of course, members, actual heads of NGBs, were not allowed in to what was suppossed to be an official ITF meeting. These were naturally members that were loyal to Master Choi. Additionally, Master Choi, the current Secty Genl of the ITF was not allowed in. How was that a proper meeting?
Are there not provisions in the constitution that must be followed for a procedure to be considered proper or "by the book"?

1. Proper notice was given. I rec'd a copy. (As I expect did all plaqueholders)
2. NGBs send delegates, not neccessarily the head of the NGB, The issue was which delegates were recognized.
3. Master Choi was allowed in, and was in which actualy lead to an infamous incident with him and then master Tom McCallum. Info I rec'd was he then left with his group to meet in another room naturlay being unhappy with the action taken.
4. There was reportedly a quaorum present.

That is how it was a proper meeting.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

1. Proper notice was given. I rec'd a copy. (As I expect did all plaqueholders)
2. NGBs send delegates, not neccessarily the head of the NGB, The issue was which delegates were recognized.
3. Master Choi was allowed in, and was in which actualy lead to an infamous incident with him and then master Tom McCallum. Info I rec'd was he then left with his group to meet in another room naturlay being unhappy with the action taken.
4. There was reportedly a quaorum present.

That is how it was a proper meeting.

Thanks for this. But was the written notice sent out with the required advanced notice?
I did here claims that the total quorom was not met, but I appreciate that input, as it helps me peice things together better, thank you

 

[Earl Weiss]

Thanks for this. But was the written notice sent out with the required advanced notice?
I did here claims that the total quorom was not met, but I appreciate that input, as it helps me peice things together better, thank you

I am fairly certain it was but would have to review the old constitution and date of notice to be certain. As I recall it was more than one month in advance. I also believe quorum numbers were met. The argument from the Junior Choi group vis a vis quorum was with regard to who the Congress chose to recognize as NGB reps. I always felt the lack of notice issue was a non starter since if I rec'd the notice I expected all other plaqueholders did as well.

It's all somewhat academic. Since an election was held at the next regular congress in 2003 anyway. If Master Choi was to take office at that time, he still could have and seen if the congress would ratify or overturn the 2001 action. He chose not to and the Congress held a regular election.

The rest shall we say is history.

 

[puunui]

So has any court anywhere in the world made a determination as to which ITF is "the" ITF?

 

[Earl Weiss]

So has any court anywhere in the world made a determination as to which ITF is "the" ITF?

Here is a link about a couple of battles being won by ITF V.

http://www.tkd-itf.org/pub_web/ver_eng/PMTTQ18092007.html

I am not aware of any being won by the other 2 groups.

 

[puunui]

Here is a link about a couple of battles being won by ITF V.

http://www.tkd-itf.org/pub_web/ver_eng/PMTTQ18092007.html

I am not aware of any being won by the other 2 groups.

Is that the organization that told you you couldn't belong to any other group like USTF?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Is that the organization that told you you couldn't belong to any other group like USTF?

Yes, Things changed radicaly after GM / Pres. Tran died.

 

[puunui]

Yes, Things changed radicaly after GM / Pres. Tran died.

Sorry to hear that. You might think about getting Kukkiwon certified.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

So has any court anywhere in the world made a determination as to which ITF is "the" ITF?

The ITF led by Master Choi (son) lost 2 cases in Canada in 2 different court levels. The ITF led by IOC Member from NK, Prof Chang Ung has been on the losing end in Vienna Austria, but they are appealing the last decision, which did say that the official congress was the regular scheduled one held in Poland back in 2003. As such, the decision said that the elections that took place there was the ITF legal board. However no court to date has forced the Prof Chang group to vacate the ITF building or pay back money from the ITF bank accounts. I guess that all this will be decided once the final court decision is rendered.
None of this should really matter much to the diehards that follow an ITF because of whatever reason they hold on to, such as bloodline = Gen Choi's son, democratic election = the late Grandmaster Tran or their teacher's (Gen Choi) wishes = IOC Member Prof Chang Ung.
2 of these ITFs (Tran & Chang) did try to discuss merging, but the Tran ITF voted down further talks.
When it comes to merging with SK TKD or the TKD in SK led by the WTF & KKW, it is primarily motivated by unification efforts with NK. So those talks will continue with the Chang ITF if the political situation changes. Of course the south Korean govt can weaken the Chang ITF by saying that the court decided that they are not the real ITF. They may have already started to weaken their hand already by allowing Master Choi (son) to return to south Korea, where he faced prosecutors and the NIS (formerly known as the KCIA) for his involvement in a plot to kill south Korean dictator Chun Do Hwan, for which he served time in a Canadian federal prison. These merger moves can not be fully understood without a clear grasp on the complex political situation of the Koreas.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Sorry to hear that. You might think about getting Kukkiwon certified.

Sir Master Earl Weiss is a senior master of ITF TKD with an 8th Dan BB. he is a long time talented & experienced martial artist that has trained since the 1960s. How could he get an equivalent degree with the KKW that would correctly reflect his long time accomplishments?
Don't you think the systems are too different from each other?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Sir Master Earl Weiss.....................................has trained since the 1960s........

Thank you for the accolades. Just for the record. MA training started with Judo in 1970 and TK-D in 1972. Couldn't be the 1960's since I'm only 39

 

[puunui]

Sir Master Earl Weiss is a senior master of ITF TKD with an 8th Dan BB. he is a long time talented & experienced martial artist that has trained since the 1960s. How could he get an equivalent degree with the KKW that would correctly reflect his long time accomplishments? Don't you think the systems are too different from each other?

I don't know about 8th Dan, maybe. It depends on who else from his organization comes with him. But anything is possible. If it were up to me, I would reopen the Kukkiwon's ITF dan assimilation program and give all ITF member Kukkiwon rank equivalent to their current ITF rank. And no, I don't think the systems are too different, and even if it were, so what. We are all one Taekwondo family and we should welcome all Taekwondoin, regardless of their current or prior affiliations. Taekwondo was meant to be inclusive, not exclusive.

 

[bluewaveschool]

8th Dan? Really? I applaud your dedication sir.