The Instructor/Coach Paradox

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Reading some of the recent threads got me thinking. Though what we do is not really a sport (depending on who you ask) it is a physical endeavor. In other areas of physical endeavor the coaches are charged with training, teaching and mentoring those who are "under" them. The coaches are not expected to have anywhere near the physical capabilities of their team members but are expected to be able to improve and maintain the team members' abilities. Martial Arts is the one physical activity where I see a different trend. In Martial Arts it is often expected that the teachers not only have the ability to mold the students but also have the ability to maintain the same level (or better) of physical ability of the students. If the teacher cannot he/she is generally looked down upon unless he/she is the founder of the system. I thought about this as I read some of threads on this board and others. I also thought about this as I scoured my library of footage for Kenpo clips to share with everyone on youtube.

Consider this if you will..

1) As I looked at all my footage of Mr. Parker I saw a noticeable decline in the physical sharpness of his moves in later footage. However he is given a "free pass" for the decline by most because he is the system's founder. I also noticed (at least from the footage I have) that as the years went on he moved less and talked more while instructing....like what coaches do.

2) As I looked at old footage of Mr. Joe Palanzo I saw a HUGE difference from what is seen today after his having both of his knees and hips operated on and/or replaced as well as his shoulders operated on. In short his moves are not as refined as prior to the many surgeries.

3) As I looked at recent footage of my first Kenpo instructor Mr. James Frederick I noticed a lot of poor stances and transistions. I then thought about the surgeries he's had on both of his knees and looked at older footage of him such as the time period when he took 3rd Place in Forms at the IKC's (I'm told the division was some 30+ deep but I wasn't there to confirm). His stances were much better. I looked even further back at footage of him as child and saw the progression over time and then the decline in later years.

4) As I looked at old footage of my current Kenpo/ Ju Jitsu instructor I noticed that physically he is not even half of what he used to be. He talks to me alot but moves with me very little. Perhaps a product of his advanced age and current illness.

I guess I just wonder why we tend to hold the instructors to such a high standard of physical prowess in Martial Arts if we don't do this for any other physical activity. Wrestling Coaches, Gymmastics Instructors, Football coaches or whatever are not held to the same standard. What makes our "contact sport" any different? Is the expectation valid? or a little unrealistic? Is our activity less physically demanding/punishing and therefore a higher level of physical prowess can be expected even at latter ages or after major injuries?

 

[Carol]

Depends on the individual student, how they learn, what they desire in a teacher, and the reasons why they desire it.

Over the summer I was looking at different MA schools. I had a very favorable exchange with Ms. Doreen Cogliandro, who is the highest ranked EPAK instructor in my area, ahd the highest rank lady in EPAK. I mentioned this privately in PMs or IMs to a few people and I was frankly stunned at the disparity responses that I received.

One person insisted that Mrs. Colgiandro was the best possible person to train under, and that she was very supportive, very detailed, etc. When I metioned that I hadn't committed myself to her school, this person couldn't understand why.

Another person was on IM with me. When I mentioned training under Mrs. C the person paused and then the next question was "How much does she weigh?" I told that person that I didn't inquire about the gi size of my potential instructors. The person then dismissed Mrs. C as being "too big to move properly. I said I doubted that. The person said something to the effect of "If they can't move, they can't teach."

At least for me, I staunchly disagree. I do not pick up that much information visually. My learning style is more kinaesthetic so I primarily need someone that is able and willing to push me in to position so I can learn the movements of what is being taught. I also need enough time in front of an instructor (or assistant) that is highly detailed and willing to be extremely picky in their constructive criticism. That, however, is just me.

There are certainly people that learn differently than I do, that seek different things from their training, and from their instructor. If someone else needs "impressive moves" from their instructor, then I think they should seek that out in their training, not mine.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the martial arts are perceived as something that we should be able to do well into old age, if done correctly.

That being said, people age and their physical ability will definitely change, esp. if they have acquired some injuries along the way. I will suggest however, that if certain types of injuries, such as knee injuries, are prevalent and common among practitioners of your art, you might want to evaluate why that is.

I see your point, and it's certainly an interesting thought. Even tho an older instructor may have lost his physical edge that is largely a product of youth, his experience from many years of training should be even more valuable. He knows it, he can still do it, he can certainly teach it, but maybe the younger students can perform "better" than he. But they wouldn't have gotten there without his instruction, experience, and insights.

My Wing Chun classmates attended some sessions with our Sifu's Sifu. This man is probably in his seventies, and he moves slower than the young guys. But ya know what? His timing is impeccable, and his technique is impeccable, and his vision for the fight is tremendous, and this is due to his experience. Even tho he is slower, with his timing and technique and vision, he can still beat you at your own game.

So what does this tell you about the old guys? They may look like they have lost their edge, but if you went nose to nose against them, I bet you'd find they will make you work hard for everything you get off them. And they might still beat you outright.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Depends on the individual student, how they learn, what they desire in a teacher, and the reasons why they desire it.

Over the summer I was looking at different MA schools. I had a very favorable exchange with Ms. Doreen Cogliandro, who is the highest ranked EPAK instructor in my area, ahd the highest rank lady in EPAK. I mentioned this privately in PMs or IMs to a few people and I was frankly stunned at the disparity responses that I received.

One person insisted that Mrs. Colgiandro was the best possible person to train under, and that she was very supportive, very detailed, etc. When I metioned that I hadn't committed myself to her school, this person couldn't understand why.

Another person was on IM with me. When I mentioned training under Mrs. C the person paused and then the next question was "How much does she weigh?" I told that person that I didn't inquire about the gi size of my potential instructors. The person then dismissed Mrs. C as being "too big to move properly. I said I doubted that. The person said something to the effect of "If they can't move, they can't teach."

At least for me, I staunchly disagree. I do not pick up that much information visually. My learning style is more kinaesthetic so I primarily need someone that is able and willing to push me in to position so I can learn the movements of what is being taught. I also need enough time in front of an instructor (or assistant) that is highly detailed and willing to be extremely picky in their constructive criticism. That, however, is just me.

There are certainly people that learn differently than I do, that seek different things from their training, and from their instructor. If someone else needs "impressive moves" from their instructor, then I think they should seek that out in their training, not mine.

Doreen's certainly worth traing with. Go for it. If we had to choose thin Kenpo instructors we'd have a mighty small group to choose from. Personally i don't think there is a Instructor/Coach paradox. All I care about is what I can learn. Lot's of talented young folks who are athletic but can't teach. The point is that it's not a paradox but a silly predjudice in the martial arts that the instructor must be able to beat up all of his/her students.

Jeff

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Doreen's certainly worth traing with. Go for it. If we had to choose thin Kenpo instructors we'd have a mighty small group to choose from. Personally i don't think there is a Instructor/Coach paradox. All I care about is what I can learn. Lot's of talented young folks who are athletic but can't teach. The point is that it's not a paradox but a silly predjudice in the martial arts that the instructor must be able to beat up all of his/her students.

Jeff

Exactly what I was thinking, but not outright saying.

 

[Gentle Fist]

A real master can teach from a wheel chair.

 

[Kacey]

Age and life take their toll on everyone eventually. The senior master in my TKD association is 60 years old, has bad knees (from serving in the armed forces, not from TKD), has gained weight, and yes, he's slower physically than he used to be... and I would not want to go near him in a fight. His insight into students' needs and abilities is nothing short of awe-inspiring; I was at a tournament he was also at last weekend, and had the opportunity to talk to him for a while. He asked which competitors were my students, and after I told him, ran down a list of things each one did well and each one needed to work on... individually... after seeing each one for perhaps 5 minutes total, in short bits in patterns and sparring competitions.

He started a discussion on the origins of TKD that wandered through history, into religion and philosphy, then literature - all related to TKD in some fashion - and never once lost track of what he was saying, the point he was making, the source of his information... while the 6 of us tried to keep track of what he was saying, and none of us came close to the breadth and depth of knowledge he was sharing with us.

And why did he do these things? Because he is passionate about the art he practices, and wants to make sure that he passes on both the passion and the knowledge he has spent the last 41 years building - and he does in a fashion that makes people want to emulate him. Who cares if he's not in as good shape physically as he was as a competitor?

 

[exile]

...none of us came close to the breadth and depth of knowledge he was sharing with us.

And why did he do these things? Because he is passionate about the art he practices, and wants to make sure that he passes on both the passion and the knowledge he has spent the last 41 years building - and he does in a fashion that makes people want to emulate him. Who cares if he's not in as good shape physically as he was as a competitor?

Well said, Kacey.

 

[zDom]

I agree with the above comments.

On the other hand, it IS nice for a student to be able to see a technique modeled. And it is certainly inspiring to see instructors maintain the ability to do techniques even as they get into latter years.

 

[jazkiljok]

Doreen's certainly worth traing with. Go for it. If we had to choose thin Kenpo instructors we'd have a mighty small group to choose from. Personally i don't think there is a Instructor/Coach paradox. All I care about is what I can learn. Lot's of talented young folks who are athletic but can't teach. The point is that it's not a paradox but a silly predjudice in the martial arts that the instructor must be able to beat up all of his/her students.

Jeff

more like jump higher, move faster, and look like a 20 year old bruce lee when they're 60. but you're dead on about the silly prejudice. arnold palmer just gave up at 70 something competing in the seniors golf circuit- his body just won't let him do what is necessary to compete-- but you'd be the biggest dumbsplit on the planet if you turned down a lesson from him.

people seek the myth of martial arts more than they do the reality. they they get most of their understanding of the arts from movies and tv before they join a school or dojo. and in the movies the head instructor is always the top dog fighter (until the evil dude kills him or he's poisoned by some wicked student setting the stage for the true protege to seek revenge and take his place as the new top dog... but i digress.)