The Importance Of Kata

[exile]

I am in a very kata-centric dojo. We do other things too, but it always comes back to the kata. Aside from the basics like teaching stances, distribution of weight, transitions, combinations, kime, etc. the kata have so much in them.

One of my instructors made a statement in class a little while ago that over the past 8 years or so, teaching 4-5 hours a day to children and adults, he hadn't gone "outside" the kata to come up with combinations & partner drills & class "themes" to teach. This includes specialized sparring and jujitsu classes. Considering the huge variety I've seen in class, this statement is pretty amazing.

What's... not exactly discouraging, but somewhat disappointing, is how much you encounter this kind of point of view on kata. I've tried to point out in various threads (e.g. my reply to that post, here) that this is basically the wrong way to look at kata, and that it makes the mistake of demanding that the blueprint for a building itself create the building on its own. But you see this same conflation of distinct ideas over and over again. And this in spite of the now enormous literature on both practical bunkai and on realistic scenario training protocols for the TMAs... sigh...

 

[Gentle Fist]

Being someone who does Judo/Jiu-Jitsu 90% and Kenpo about 10% of the time....

I do NOT like kata and feel randori/alive training is time better spent. But then again I am becoming less and less a Kenpoka.

 

[exile]

Being someone who does Judo/Jiu-Jitsu 90% and Kenpo about 10% of the time....

I do NOT like kata and feel randori/alive training is time better spent. But then again I am becoming less and less a Kenpoka.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was commenting about earlier as a false opposition, a category confusion. `Alive training' is an absolutely essential component of kata-based MAs; Abernethy, in his book Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata, has a whole chapter on it, the last one in the book, and the kind of `alive training' that these British Combat Association guys do can give you a broken nose and fractured ribs, as Abernethy himself pointed out had happened to him in his article in Black Belt from April of this year. But given that you are training `alive', WHAT are you training? What, in any given defense situation, is the specific tactical expression of your art's strategic principles? That's what the kata are guidelines for! Again, it's like saying, I don't believe in scripts for theatre; I think acting is more important... you need both: one tells you what works, the other makes sure you can carry out those techniques in real time!

There–is–no–contradiction....

 

[Gentle Fist]

This is exactly the kind of thing I was commenting about earlier as a false opposition, a category confusion. `Alive training' is an absolutely essential component of kata-based MAs; Abernethy, in his book Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata, has a whole chapter on it, the last one in the book, and the kind of `alive training' that these British Combat Association guys do can give you a broken nose and fractured ribs, as Abernethy himself pointed out had happened to him in his article in Black Belt from April of this year. But given that you are training `alive', WHAT are you training? What, in any given defense situation, is the specific tactical expression of your art's strategic principles? That's what the kata are guidelines for! Again, it's like saying, I don't believe in scripts for theatre; I think acting is more important... you need both: one tells you what works, the other makes sure you can carry out those techniques in real time!

There–is–no–contradiction....

Well said!

So my next question for you would be this...

Do you like learning the lines for the play or perfecting your performance?

 

[exile]

Well said!

So my next question for you would be this...

Do you like learning the lines for the play or perfecting your performance?

Well... to answer that, let me make the following correspondences: the lines in the script correspond to the movements in the kata. The act of learning the kata, internalizing it, corresponds to actors learning their lines. The use of those movements as a series of combat moves—linked techniques, in other words, informed by solid strategic principles—corresponds to the performance of the play.

Now I suspect that most actors actually prefer getting through the line-learning part as quickly as possible, using whatever tricks they use as performers to absorb their scripts (or, if we were talking about musicians, their scores); what they really enjoy is the interpretation, the real-time manifestation of those lines so that they have a kind of living reality for the audience. That's the actor's craft. In the same way, I think that MAists who train the applications of kata movement, kata which they've learned well and accurately, probably prefer the execution of the real techs that those kata incorporate over the repetitive performance of the kata as a kind of choreographed showpiece. That's certainly true for me. As Bill Burgar puts it in his book Five Years, One Kata about the combat content of Gojushiho, the problem is that people focus on performing the kata, not studying them. If, once you've learned the movements really well, you stop working primarily on the performance and more on how (subsequences of) those movements translate into fighting scenarios, then you have the great satisfaction of having decoded what is, for most people, a rich instruction set whose existence they're unaware of; and if you then take that instruction set and train it under tough, realistic conditions with a noncompliant training partner—someone who is going to do a very good imitation of a violent street attack on you—then you have the even greater satisfaction of seeing just how robust and businesslike the technical content of the MA you practice really is! But it's that last step—the live training part—which is the hardest and most intimidating, because that's where you have to take the information contained in the kata to the bank and really incorporate it into your reflexive combat toolkit. And the more realistic is, the better for you down the road, but also the more likely you are to get roughed up during your training...

Still, I have to say that for me the best part is working out the bunkai and testing it out with a good training partner. If only there were more of those around, eh? Someone who'll give you a rough enough time to be a credible imitation of an attacker, but with enough control that you're not going to get killed if you (or s/he) makes a mistake...

 

[Danjo]

Well... to answer that, let me make the following correspondences: the lines in the script correspond to the movements in the kata. The act of learning the kata, internalizing it, corresponds to actors learning their lines. The use of those movements as a series of combat moves—linked techniques, in other words, informed by solid strategic principles—corresponds to the performance of the play.

Now I suspect that most actors actually prefer getting through the line-learning part as quickly as possible, using whatever tricks they use as performers to absorb their scripts (or, if we were talking about musicians, their scores); what they really enjoy is the interpretation, the real-time manifestation of those lines so that they have a kind of living reality for the audience. That's the actor's craft. In the same way, I think that MAists who train the applications of kata movement, kata which they've learned well and accurately, probably prefer the execution of the real techs that those kata incorporate over the repetitive performance of the kata as a kind of choreographed showpiece. That's certainly true for me. As Bill Burgar puts it in his book Five Years, One Kata about the combat content of Gojushiho, the problem is that people focus on performing the kata, not studying them. If, once you've learned the movements really well, you stop working primarily on the performance and more on how (subsequences of) those movements translate into fighting scenarios, then you have the great satisfaction of having decoded what is, for most people, a rich instruction set whose existence they're unaware of; and if you then take that instruction set and train it under tough, realistic conditions with a noncompliant training partner—someone who is going to do a very good imitation of a violent street attack on you—then you have the even greater satisfaction of seeing just how robust and businesslike the technical content of the MA you practice really is! But it's that last step—the live training part—which is the hardest and most intimidating, because that's where you have to take the information contained in the kata to the bank and really incorporate it into your reflexive combat toolkit. And the more realistic is, the better for you down the road, but also the more likely you are to get roughed up during your training...

Still, I have to say that for me the best part is working out the bunkai and testing it out with a good training partner. If only there were more of those around, eh? Someone who'll give you a rough enough time to be a credible imitation of an attacker, but with enough control that you're not going to get killed if you (or s/he) makes a mistake...

Excellent post. Memorizing the lines and blocking is only the first step towards a performance. Once the lines and blocking have been commited to memory, then focussing on the nuances of the character comes into play. Ensuring that everything you're doing is furthering the plot and not distracting from it. The better one understands the play and part, the better one is going to be able to ad-lib when a fellow actor forgets his or her line or if a prop is left off the set etc. etc. It all comes from rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

I know my understanding of kata got better once I started FMA. I was able to look at the bunkai differntly from what my American instrutor did. They all did it with a block-then-strike-then-block-then-strike rythm and mentality as opposed to the blockstrikelockstrikestriketrap flowing type of thing. The guys I trained with that trained in Okinawa and the Okinawan Grandmaster did the type of rythm I had gotten use to in the FMA's. Block and counter at the same time. Not one then the other. The bunkai wasn't always strick to the kata movements. Stancing and angles changed to adapt to the attack your opponent made.

 

[MJS]

Almost forgot about this thread. Great replies everyone!

Interestingly enough, I was looking thru the latest BB magazine. In it, there was a letter to the editor, in which the author was talking about kata, the importance of them and how many RBSD systems dismiss them. The author proceeded to talk about various moves in kata and how they applied to actual moves that we'd use in a SD situation.

I feel that they are important, because they, if properly understood, really do contain alot. I underlined that word, because its key IMO. Too many times, we see people just going thru the moves, without any idea as to what they're doing.

Love 'em or hate 'em, they are just a piece of the puzzle, just like everything else.

 

[MJS]

However, I feel they are important for the learning of basics and transitioning. Of course, we're talking about the basic kata, not the fancy acrobatic ones you see in tourneys done to music. (blech!)

This is just one of the things, IMO, that gives a bad rep to the arts. People take a perfectly good kata, and add a bunch of garbage to it, totally taking away any value to it.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

Yep, people see these gymkata routines and think that's what MA are about, so they gravitate towards the systems with out kata causing the slow dwindeling of the traditional systems. I have backed out of the Okinawan arts to teach FMAs lately, but more and more I get the urge to return to the Okinawan arts if for nothing else than to have a small group of people that can carry the torch so to speak of how traditional kata should be practiced and understood, not just moves for the sake of making it look pretty or entertaining, but actual combat effectiveness.

 

[still learning]

Hello, One wonders why only martial arts have "kata", and all the other sports do not?

Training by oneself is very important. We all need this...but using Kata is not the only way either.

Have you found working with a partner and exhangeing blows,block,contact gives a more real feelings to actual combat?

Off course..real fighing is the best way to train...one would not last or live longer doing this.

Kata may have a small part of the martial arts....Have you seem people move and fight like a Kata? or in those patterns? ....

Can we learn the same things as in a kata without doing a kata? ...Yes!

PLease know the difference between a kata and other training methods...there is a difference. That is why we call it Kata....the other stuffs another name.

Just my opinon and thoughts on this.....is it ok? for me to disagree? and have one's own opinion?

Aloha ( as time progress...looking and seeing things from a different point of view...) ...always asking....the "WHY'S?

 

[Danjo]

Hello, One wonders why only martial arts have "kata", and all the other sports do not?

Perhaps the idea that Kata was not designed for "sportive" purposes explains it. kata was a mnemonic device that allowed one to train in a specific fighting system by arranging the techniques and concepts of a system into a logical pattern that could be memorized and transmitted to others. The patterns were used to improve flow and the idea of constant attack. They were further designed to be used against common attacks and situations one was likely to encounter.

Training by oneself is very important. We all need this...but using Kata is not the only way either.

True. It's not the only way. Depends on what you're training in.

Have you found working with a partner and exhangeing blows,block,contact gives a more real feelings to actual combat?

Again, it depends. Are the partners training in a realistic way?

Off course..real fighing is the best way to train...one would not last or live longer doing this.

I don't think so. Imagine if the only training one got as a boxer was on fight night. Would that be superior training? Are you saying that living a short life is the best way to train?

Kata may have a small part of the martial arts....Have you seem people move and fight like a Kata? or in those patterns? ....

Well, the entire kata is not supposed to represent one perfectly correographed fight, but rather a series of concepts that allow one to put together combinations and concepts from a particular system. How large or small a part of a martial art depends on the person, instructor and the art itself.

Can we learn the same things as in a kata without doing a kata? ...Yes!

Well, aside from the fact that you answered your own question on this one, I would ask a different one: Is kata the best way to learn what is contained in the kata? That it is not the only way, I'll concede.

PLease know the difference between a kata and other training methods...there is a difference. That is why we call it Kata....the other stuffs another name.

I don't think anyone here suffers fromn a lack of knowledge about the difference between kata and other training methods. Not even sure you have a point on this one.

Just my opinon and thoughts on this.....is it ok? for me to disagree? and have one's own opinion?

Aloha ( as time progress...looking and seeing things from a different point of view...) ...always asking....the "WHY'S?

Clearly you can have your own opinion. Not sure who you're disagreeing with, but even that is clearly allowed.

 

[LawDog]

Many of the other contact sports deal with a one vs one interaction. Most Martial Arts will cover situations that deal with a two plus vs one interaction.
Tacticle theory, when dealing with one vs one is a little different than dealing with two plus vs one. Many of the one vs one presets are similar to many of the two vs one situations but their individual tacticle applications are very different.
Students must be taught how to properly apply a one vs one preset for a two vs one situation.

 

[jks9199]

Hello, One wonders why only martial arts have "kata", and all the other sports do not?

Training by oneself is very important. We all need this...but using Kata is not the only way either.

Other sports do have prearranged exercises to teach their principles. It's called swimming laps or doing compulsories or running routes, playing catch, fielding practice, etc.

Don't forget that solo kata practice isn't the only way to do kata; many styles include two-person (or even, rarely, more than two person) kata practice.

Have you found working with a partner and exhangeing blows,block,contact gives a more real feelings to actual combat?

Off course..real fighing is the best way to train...one would not last or live longer doing this.

Kata may have a small part of the martial arts....Have you seem people move and fight like a Kata? or in those patterns? ....

Kata or forms are a catalog or index; they embody principles or teach a technique under an ideal condition. Let me compare them to (American) football; in high school, I played on the offensive line. We'd practice our plays in several ways. While the quarterback and receivers were running their routes, and tossing a football, we'd be hitting blocking dummies or pads to practice our blocking assignment. Later, we'd bring the entire offense together, and we'd run the play, without a defense. (Sound kind of like kata practice for a team?) Then, we'd run the plays against the defense. (Gee... sounds a bit like something comparable to sparring, huh?)

But, other sports don't necessarily have a component similar to kata; they don't need it. Part of the role of kata is to embody or index the underlying theories and strategies of a fighting system; you don't need that in soccer or football or baseball. The team's strategies are included in other ways, like knowing where to throw with a man second, and two outs.

Can we learn the same things as in a kata without doing a kata? ...Yes!

PLease know the difference between a kata and other training methods...there is a difference. That is why we call it Kata....the other stuffs another name.

Just my opinon and thoughts on this.....is it ok? for me to disagree? and have one's own opinion?

Aloha ( as time progress...looking and seeing things from a different point of view...) ...always asking....the "WHY'S?

Martial arts include many different ways to practice, as do other sports. But you're going in the same circle, again. In the end, your training is YOUR business. YOU train the way you think will help you achieve your best results.

 

[exile]

Kata may have a small part of the martial arts....Have you seem people move and fight like a Kata? or in those patterns? ....

Can we learn the same things as in a kata without doing a kata? ...Yes!

What strikes me, still_learning, is how many times you've posted messages almost identical in content to this one. And you've had repeated responses that try to point out to you the difference between kata—the 'script', the instruction set for real street combat under many different scenarios—and training those instructions—what Danjo calls, absolutely on target, the rehersal. Repeatedly it's been pointed out to you (i) that you don't train the kata so you can 'look/move like the kata' when you fight; rather, you study the kata to learn how the style in question teaches you to respond to a grab, a push, a punch thrown to the head—information encoded in the kata and available to you if you learn the rules of deciphering the kata; and (ii) that what you do train is the combat response that the kata teaches you. All of this has been communicated to you, over and over again. And yet you still keep posting variations of the same post, the message of which is that you have not been able, or been willing, to address the responses you've been given along these lines—responses which fully address all of the points you've raised.

So here's my question: why do you not engage these responses that many people clearly have taken a good deal of time to offer you, reflecting a good deal of careful thought on their part? Why do you continue to post as though these questions you raise haven't already been answered, in detail, a dozen times or more? Why, if you don't like what you're hearing, do you not attempt to frame a coherent counter to what we're all telling you? Beating a dead horse is pointless; beating a very live, healthy horse is... well... just pointless cruelty!