K
Kirk
Guest
I agree with MJS' agreeing with Kenpomachine's agreeing with Rob!
Kata
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
R
RCastillo
Guest
I agree with you. Anything to pad the form just to win is crap, and cheapens the art.:soapbox:
P
progressivetactics
Guest
I agree with.....oh wait.....I'm alone on this....damn.
I don't either.
Well, i didn't mean all inclusive, however; I do believe personal evolution or improvments CAN BE by improving your athleticism, which would pertain to this.
Correct, but it graduated to this point. Sorry I want on my little tangent.
No....i think he would win because you have given up before you tried. I have seen many 'no names' beat out nationally ranked competitors. Just about 2 months ago, a soft fist stylist almost beat out 2 national competitors in Detroit, but ended up walking off the floor after he screwed up. We (the judges) all told him afterwards, he was going to win 1st the way it was headed. Very seldom does a soft fist form beat a hard fist form in Detroit area.
That is exactly correct. And much better my hands take that then my face or head.
This is a good question. How about when you grade a student on an exam... You know his good and his bad techniques. Do you ask him to demonstrate the things you know he is bad at? Do you require him to do the good ones even though you know already from class how he does them? It is not much different then judging someone you see week in and week out. I may know the basic lay out of their flashy form, but that gives me an advantage in judging and puts them at a disadvantage, because now I know what to look for, or can compare it to how they did it last week.
Isn't that true of everything? And isn't that why we practice everything over and over? TO help elimate some of the telegraphs in our movement.
Sirs, I mean no disrespect in my opinions and points of view. Please don't take anything as offensive. I merely think that way to many people don't like sport karate, or don't fully understand it, and therefore condemn it. I believe sport karate to be an excellent release for students. I think it improves many aspects of their training. I don't push tournaments, I don't compete in them, But I support some of my fellow martial artists who hold tournaments, and I encourage any of my students who want to compete in them.
I don't either.
Well, i didn't mean all inclusive, however; I do believe personal evolution or improvments CAN BE by improving your athleticism, which would pertain to this.
Correct, but it graduated to this point. Sorry I want on my little tangent.
No....i think he would win because you have given up before you tried. I have seen many 'no names' beat out nationally ranked competitors. Just about 2 months ago, a soft fist stylist almost beat out 2 national competitors in Detroit, but ended up walking off the floor after he screwed up. We (the judges) all told him afterwards, he was going to win 1st the way it was headed. Very seldom does a soft fist form beat a hard fist form in Detroit area.
That is exactly correct. And much better my hands take that then my face or head.
This is a good question. How about when you grade a student on an exam... You know his good and his bad techniques. Do you ask him to demonstrate the things you know he is bad at? Do you require him to do the good ones even though you know already from class how he does them? It is not much different then judging someone you see week in and week out. I may know the basic lay out of their flashy form, but that gives me an advantage in judging and puts them at a disadvantage, because now I know what to look for, or can compare it to how they did it last week.
I am only saying the sparring isn't perfect either. My point was that it is better to help solve then to sideline complain. We are always trying to improve, but negative attitudes and speculation about what goes on is always going to hurt the arts, sport or no sport.
I'm 250. And in this day and age, I would't be suprised if it is on the net somewhere, with people laughing at me for my sorry rendition of a cartwheel.
Isn't that true of everything? And isn't that why we practice everything over and over? TO help elimate some of the telegraphs in our movement.
Sirs, I mean no disrespect in my opinions and points of view. Please don't take anything as offensive. I merely think that way to many people don't like sport karate, or don't fully understand it, and therefore condemn it. I believe sport karate to be an excellent release for students. I think it improves many aspects of their training. I don't push tournaments, I don't compete in them, But I support some of my fellow martial artists who hold tournaments, and I encourage any of my students who want to compete in them.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Lot's of good stuff in this thread--but it does seem to have wandered a bit... I do want to take this opportunity to comment on some earlier posts and to throw in some of my uniquely bizarre personal opinions.
Sub-topic 1: 2-man Kata and Bunkai training.
Tshadowchaser: You commented early on that Kata is not necessarily solo practice and that many sytems have 2-man forms.
Lonewolfandcub: you responded that EPAK has a 2-man set.
Pyros: you commented on the importance of Bunkai training to supplement Kata practice.
I would argue that each and every self-defense technique in EPAK and Tracy's Kenpo Karate are in fact 2-man Kata. The movements and responses are pre-arranged. They are drilled with specific movements, timing, transitions, a formal beginning, and a formal ending. Practice of techniques with speed, contact, and/or what-if variation is the Kenpo version of Bunkai. I would also argue that the self-defense/fight training value of Bunkai/self-defense techniques is better than that of solo Kata practice, but it is still a form of Kata practice. All of the nasty comments I've made about Kata practice as self-defense/fight training still apply.
Sub-topic 2: Robert McRobertson's posts. Robert: I agree with more of your comments on this thread than on any other thread or forum where I have lurked or posted since obtaining the free-time to do so at work this spring.
One comment made me chuckle with a fond memory: Your comment about fake kiais in Kata competition. Back in the late 80's, I remember judging a Jr. Kenpo Kata division where some Shaolin Kenpo (with an "N") students were doing the big long kiai thing in their katas. There was one pre-teen competitor who would open his mouth really wide and sustain his kiai for as long as his little lungs would let him. All of the judges were either EPAK or from my school. We were all joking about what would happen if we threw a tennis ball into his mouth while he was kiaing...
One comment that did not make me chuckle was your comment that younger guys want to fight and older guys want to do Kata. I did too much Kata when I was younger and not enough fighting. Now that I am middle-aged (42), I am doing all my training with fighting/sparring in mind. Maybe you are right and when I am older I will want to do Kata. But I feel pretty old now and all I want to do is practice fighting.
Sub-topic 3: Traditional vs Open forms competitions, cartwheels, etc.
I think it may have all started with a jumping kick...Back in the old days, there was only traditional Japanese Kata, Kung Fu katas, Korean Katas, and Kenpo/Kajukenbo forms. After watching the umpteenth Short 3, the umpteenth Heian Godan, etc. forms competition became really really boring. Somebody somewhere probably decided to jump with a front kick and the martial arts world has never recovered. In the early 80's Ernie Reyes Jr. came along and at about 7 years old blew away every Kata competitor at the Internationals.
So what is my point? It's this. I abhore open forms competition. Cartwheels landing in the spits, spinning around with multiple wheel-kicks, scowling kids in bright satin gi's: It's just plain ridiculous. I much prefer traditional forms. But open forms are a necessary outlet for creativity and for experimentation that can only improve the martial arts long-term.
Sub-topic 4: the practicallity of cartwheels in self-defense.
My personal opinion is that trying to do a cartwheel in a fight would probably be the last thing I would remember before waking up in the hospital. That being said...Last week we did cartwheels during warm-up in my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class. Now how stupid do you think a fat, balding, 42-year old, 220 pounder looks trying to do cartwheels? Well, in BJJ, you can actually do a guard pass-to-mount with a cartwheel. I looked pretty stupid doing it, and I couldn't make it work. But the black belt who taught the class and many of the advanced students made it work on me no matter how hard I tried to resist.
Sub-topic 1: 2-man Kata and Bunkai training.
Tshadowchaser: You commented early on that Kata is not necessarily solo practice and that many sytems have 2-man forms.
Lonewolfandcub: you responded that EPAK has a 2-man set.
Pyros: you commented on the importance of Bunkai training to supplement Kata practice.
I would argue that each and every self-defense technique in EPAK and Tracy's Kenpo Karate are in fact 2-man Kata. The movements and responses are pre-arranged. They are drilled with specific movements, timing, transitions, a formal beginning, and a formal ending. Practice of techniques with speed, contact, and/or what-if variation is the Kenpo version of Bunkai. I would also argue that the self-defense/fight training value of Bunkai/self-defense techniques is better than that of solo Kata practice, but it is still a form of Kata practice. All of the nasty comments I've made about Kata practice as self-defense/fight training still apply.
Sub-topic 2: Robert McRobertson's posts. Robert: I agree with more of your comments on this thread than on any other thread or forum where I have lurked or posted since obtaining the free-time to do so at work this spring.
One comment made me chuckle with a fond memory: Your comment about fake kiais in Kata competition. Back in the late 80's, I remember judging a Jr. Kenpo Kata division where some Shaolin Kenpo (with an "N") students were doing the big long kiai thing in their katas. There was one pre-teen competitor who would open his mouth really wide and sustain his kiai for as long as his little lungs would let him. All of the judges were either EPAK or from my school. We were all joking about what would happen if we threw a tennis ball into his mouth while he was kiaing...
One comment that did not make me chuckle was your comment that younger guys want to fight and older guys want to do Kata. I did too much Kata when I was younger and not enough fighting. Now that I am middle-aged (42), I am doing all my training with fighting/sparring in mind. Maybe you are right and when I am older I will want to do Kata. But I feel pretty old now and all I want to do is practice fighting.
Sub-topic 3: Traditional vs Open forms competitions, cartwheels, etc.
I think it may have all started with a jumping kick...Back in the old days, there was only traditional Japanese Kata, Kung Fu katas, Korean Katas, and Kenpo/Kajukenbo forms. After watching the umpteenth Short 3, the umpteenth Heian Godan, etc. forms competition became really really boring. Somebody somewhere probably decided to jump with a front kick and the martial arts world has never recovered. In the early 80's Ernie Reyes Jr. came along and at about 7 years old blew away every Kata competitor at the Internationals.
So what is my point? It's this. I abhore open forms competition. Cartwheels landing in the spits, spinning around with multiple wheel-kicks, scowling kids in bright satin gi's: It's just plain ridiculous. I much prefer traditional forms. But open forms are a necessary outlet for creativity and for experimentation that can only improve the martial arts long-term.
Sub-topic 4: the practicallity of cartwheels in self-defense.
My personal opinion is that trying to do a cartwheel in a fight would probably be the last thing I would remember before waking up in the hospital. That being said...Last week we did cartwheels during warm-up in my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class. Now how stupid do you think a fat, balding, 42-year old, 220 pounder looks trying to do cartwheels? Well, in BJJ, you can actually do a guard pass-to-mount with a cartwheel. I looked pretty stupid doing it, and I couldn't make it work. But the black belt who taught the class and many of the advanced students made it work on me no matter how hard I tried to resist.
P
Pyros
Guest
Just to be really picky... I don't think you should supplement kata practise with bunkai training, I think kata practice always contains bunkai training. Otherwise I wouldn't call it kata training at all, just solo training. I know this sounds picky and meaningless, but it is about the definition of the term "kata training". In my view, if you are only doing solo training, and no bunkai training, then you can't really say you are training kata. You are just going through the motions.
I often like to use the "kata is a book" metaphor. If we understand that kata is the old Okinawan style of writing a book on self defence techniques (you know, the old bushi didn't have printers at their disposals nor did all the students know how to read in the first place...) then solo practice is equivalent of reading the book on self defence methods, and bunkai training with partner is the actual training process of the methods in the book. If you just sit there reading a book on self defence methods, you won't learn much. You must stand up and do it on someone who fights back. Same with kata, if you only do solo form, you are only reading the technique list, not training to use them.
:asian:
I guess this thread did start to wonder a little, but thats ok, because it makes it more interesting. Progressive--no offense taken!! Like I had said earlier, I started this thread with the intention of talking about the movements in the kata, and how they can be used for SD. To address a few things in your post.
As far as a 'no name' beating a regular-- I personally have not seen much of this. I say this, cuz it has happened to me when I was competing, and I'd slowly see the 'no names' get weeded out, eventually leaving the well known guys to compete amongst themselves. My opinion--you have to be pretty damn good to go up against the well known guy.
As for giving up-- Well, considering I went to the tourny with a group, and prior to the event, we all busted out a**es training, watching each other doing the katas to correct footwork, stances, etc. and then to show up and get beat by a guy doing a split, and screaming--notice I say screaming, not doing a kiai---that alone is enough to make you want to give up. I should not have to drop into a split and scream as if I'm being stabbed in the heart, just to win!
As for practice-- You are correct! That is exactly why we do things over and over and over again---to get better at them. An example for you. I was sparring in class one day. I was fighting this guy, who, when the match started, came charging in at me. I did a spinning back kick, that landed right on his chest, knocking him to the ground. My next match, against a different person, I attempted the same kick at one point during the fight. He saw it coming, moved in, jammed the kick, and hit me in the head. In addition to the practice, you need to have that timing down also. Otherwise, every time you throw that kick, they will see it coming.
In regards to the sport aspect of it--- It all depends on the person, as we all train for different reasons. However, you will fight like you train. Take for example TKD. I have seen many TKD guys throw kicks with their hands down while sparring. Now, are they going to do the same thing in a real situation? I would hope not. Maybe in TKD they dont allow hits to the head, so thats why they keep their hands down...I dont know...only assuming...but by doing something like that outside, you might find yourself waking up on the ground.
Anyway--excellent posts and comments by everybody!
Mike
As far as a 'no name' beating a regular-- I personally have not seen much of this. I say this, cuz it has happened to me when I was competing, and I'd slowly see the 'no names' get weeded out, eventually leaving the well known guys to compete amongst themselves. My opinion--you have to be pretty damn good to go up against the well known guy.
As for giving up-- Well, considering I went to the tourny with a group, and prior to the event, we all busted out a**es training, watching each other doing the katas to correct footwork, stances, etc. and then to show up and get beat by a guy doing a split, and screaming--notice I say screaming, not doing a kiai---that alone is enough to make you want to give up. I should not have to drop into a split and scream as if I'm being stabbed in the heart, just to win!
As for practice-- You are correct! That is exactly why we do things over and over and over again---to get better at them. An example for you. I was sparring in class one day. I was fighting this guy, who, when the match started, came charging in at me. I did a spinning back kick, that landed right on his chest, knocking him to the ground. My next match, against a different person, I attempted the same kick at one point during the fight. He saw it coming, moved in, jammed the kick, and hit me in the head. In addition to the practice, you need to have that timing down also. Otherwise, every time you throw that kick, they will see it coming.
In regards to the sport aspect of it--- It all depends on the person, as we all train for different reasons. However, you will fight like you train. Take for example TKD. I have seen many TKD guys throw kicks with their hands down while sparring. Now, are they going to do the same thing in a real situation? I would hope not. Maybe in TKD they dont allow hits to the head, so thats why they keep their hands down...I dont know...only assuming...but by doing something like that outside, you might find yourself waking up on the ground.
Anyway--excellent posts and comments by everybody!
Mike
P
progressivetactics
Guest
Pryros--
interesting interpretation.
I'll buy that.
MJS- Good stuff. I agree.
And I do agree about regulars winning more times then not..but that only makes sense... Attitude, attendance often get compensation.
As for the TKD, you are correct...they are not allowed hands to the head in sparring. My guess is, they will (in SD) keep their hands down more times then not, because that is how they (majority of clubs i belonged to, or seen) practice.
interesting interpretation.
I'll buy that.
MJS- Good stuff. I agree.
And I do agree about regulars winning more times then not..but that only makes sense... Attitude, attendance often get compensation.
As for the TKD, you are correct...they are not allowed hands to the head in sparring. My guess is, they will (in SD) keep their hands down more times then not, because that is how they (majority of clubs i belonged to, or seen) practice.
S
Scott Bonner
Guest
Depends on the TKD. There's a world of difference between sport/olympic/WTF TKD and comprehensive/traditional/ITF TKD (even these 2 groupings are a horrible overgeneralization -- there's as many kinds of TKD as Kenpo).
I'm learning a more comprehensive TKD. When we spar, it's all good hand or foot high or low, and we don't spar for points. It's hard-hitting and continuous and not at all related to tournament sparring. And, this kind of TKD has a lot of what Kenpo calls self-defense techniques (though most aren't as long or complex, generally).
And, it's all about power. We don't emphasize tournaments, so much of the training is about hitting with stopping force on pads and shields and full travel in the air, though we do use control when sparring and doing self-defense.
I'm only an orange belt in this TKD, though, so I don't know what it's like later. There's a lot to the system, though. With consistent training, getting to black should take me at least 6 to 7 years. It's not a school (free training at a park) so I know it's not about money, either.
My point is that there's a lot to TKD, and many kinds of TKD, and you can't make any generalizations about all TKD any more than you can about all Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo/Tracy's/EPAK/you-get-the-idea.
Peace,
Scott
I'm learning a more comprehensive TKD. When we spar, it's all good hand or foot high or low, and we don't spar for points. It's hard-hitting and continuous and not at all related to tournament sparring. And, this kind of TKD has a lot of what Kenpo calls self-defense techniques (though most aren't as long or complex, generally).
And, it's all about power. We don't emphasize tournaments, so much of the training is about hitting with stopping force on pads and shields and full travel in the air, though we do use control when sparring and doing self-defense.
I'm only an orange belt in this TKD, though, so I don't know what it's like later. There's a lot to the system, though. With consistent training, getting to black should take me at least 6 to 7 years. It's not a school (free training at a park) so I know it's not about money, either.
My point is that there's a lot to TKD, and many kinds of TKD, and you can't make any generalizations about all TKD any more than you can about all Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo/Tracy's/EPAK/you-get-the-idea.
Peace,
Scott
Yup--I understand what you are saying Scott. i'm just going on what I have seen on the art. Personally, I really dont know much about it, so I cant judge it 100%. However, as the saying "A picture is worth a thousand words!" goes....the TKD that I have seen, did not paint a good pic.
Just my opinion!
MJS
Just my opinion!
MJS
T
twinkletoes
Guest
Mike,
What a great topic! I just wrote an article on this a couple of months ago, and it will be one of the featured articles on Roy Harris' new site when it launches.
I'll give you the abridged version:
There are 2 types of Kata in traditional arts. Type #1 is a choreographed set of moves executed by one or more practitioners. Karate kata are this kind.
Type #2 is a single move, but executed in a certain manner to demonstrate the form of the technique. Traditional Jujutsu uses this. (I.e. the instructor asks you to demonstrate the Hip throw "kata", in which case you do a hip throw and he evaluates the technical correctness of your hip throw). I will not discuss type #2 because we all need to learn a move with good mechanics, and practice it as such. It would be silly to say these are pointless.
Type #1 is a tricky beast, but I will say this:
Practicing kata builds the following attributes:
Focus, Concentration, Endurance, Flexibility, Strength, Speed, Flow, Stamina, Muscle memory, emotional control, and more.
However, it does not build the following attributes:
Timing and Positioning.
Those of us who are adopting a Thorntonian approach to training realize that this puts kata in the 1st "I" stage: skill introduction. This is not knocking kata! But it is still practicing skills for the purpose of practicing skills. There is nothing wrong with that--that is important! Everyone should execute their moves with the right mechanics: you can't proceed without good mechanics into isolation and integration.
However, in order to build skills that will be useful in an unchoreographed environment, kata (and other I-1 training like bag work, reps in front of a mirror, and others) must be paired with alive isolation (I-2) drills that use unchoreographed footwork and timing. This will build appropriateness, so that the skills more easily integrate (I-3) into sparring or melees or mob scenes or whatever you use this for in real life.
I am actually revising the article again right now, before Mr. Harris launches his new site. I will let you know when the article goes up!
Best,
~TT
What a great topic! I just wrote an article on this a couple of months ago, and it will be one of the featured articles on Roy Harris' new site when it launches.
I'll give you the abridged version:
There are 2 types of Kata in traditional arts. Type #1 is a choreographed set of moves executed by one or more practitioners. Karate kata are this kind.
Type #2 is a single move, but executed in a certain manner to demonstrate the form of the technique. Traditional Jujutsu uses this. (I.e. the instructor asks you to demonstrate the Hip throw "kata", in which case you do a hip throw and he evaluates the technical correctness of your hip throw). I will not discuss type #2 because we all need to learn a move with good mechanics, and practice it as such. It would be silly to say these are pointless.
Type #1 is a tricky beast, but I will say this:
Practicing kata builds the following attributes:
Focus, Concentration, Endurance, Flexibility, Strength, Speed, Flow, Stamina, Muscle memory, emotional control, and more.
However, it does not build the following attributes:
Timing and Positioning.
Those of us who are adopting a Thorntonian approach to training realize that this puts kata in the 1st "I" stage: skill introduction. This is not knocking kata! But it is still practicing skills for the purpose of practicing skills. There is nothing wrong with that--that is important! Everyone should execute their moves with the right mechanics: you can't proceed without good mechanics into isolation and integration.
However, in order to build skills that will be useful in an unchoreographed environment, kata (and other I-1 training like bag work, reps in front of a mirror, and others) must be paired with alive isolation (I-2) drills that use unchoreographed footwork and timing. This will build appropriateness, so that the skills more easily integrate (I-3) into sparring or melees or mob scenes or whatever you use this for in real life.
I am actually revising the article again right now, before Mr. Harris launches his new site. I will let you know when the article goes up!
Best,
~TT
