the good bad and ugly

[parkerkarate]

I totally resent the idea of not having any degree of black belt before the age of 18. Some people such as myself got their first degree when they were 16. But the rest are just some pretty bad opinions.

 

[loki09789]

I totally resent the idea of not having any degree of black belt before the age of 18. Some people such as myself got their first degree when they were 16. But the rest are just some pretty bad opinions.

I understand the frustration you are expressing. Consider this from the overall good point of view though (not saying it is my position, only trying to give an alternate view):

There are some pretty devistating things that students can learn at the BB level in Kenpo. Morally, if the skill and lethality of a BB can be compared to a gun, an age limit on promotion is about the same as the age requirement for firearms purchase/pistol permit issuing.

Even the alternative of issuing 'Junior BB' rank could be just a paper tiger rank to make younger students feel better because once they reach the appropriate age in most programs with this type of rank, they convert to a brown belt and have complete the 'adult program' anyway.

It might be frustrating because you have demonstrated the maturity/responsibility for 'adult' promotion, but consider the responsibility/liability of the overall program.

 

[jeffkyle]

I understand the frustration you are expressing. Consider this from the overall good point of view though (not saying it is my position, only trying to give an alternate view):

There are some pretty devistating things that students can learn at the BB level in Kenpo. Morally, if the skill and lethality of a BB can be compared to a gun, an age limit on promotion is about the same as the age requirement for firearms purchase/pistol permit issuing.

Even the alternative of issuing 'Junior BB' rank could be just a paper tiger rank to make younger students feel better because once they reach the appropriate age in most programs with this type of rank, they convert to a brown belt and have complete the 'adult program' anyway.

It might be frustrating because you have demonstrated the maturity/responsibility for 'adult' promotion, but consider the responsibility/liability of the overall program.

Very good point. iMo.

 

[Blindside]

There are some pretty devistating things that students can learn at the BB level in Kenpo. Morally, if the skill and lethality of a BB can be compared to a gun, an age limit on promotion is about the same as the age requirement for firearms purchase/pistol permit issuing.

To play devils advocate here, say you don't promote until 18, and your student keeps practicing. So now you have a first brown with 2 years of experience. What is so deadly about the test, or for that matter the next set of extensions/techniques that the student will learn? We teach a chop (sorry, handsword) to the throat at yellow belt. If you truly wanted to argue this, you should argue that the student shouldn't BEGIN training until they are 18, which would promptly put 99% of commercial schools right out of business.

I am not a supporter of kiddie karate, but being 16 is not a child. In fact, it is far deadlier to give a driving license to a 16 year old than it will ever be to give a black belt.

Lamont

 

[loki09789]

To play devils advocate here, say you don't promote until 18, and your student keeps practicing. So now you have a first brown with 2 years of experience. What is so deadly about the test, or for that matter the next set of extensions/techniques that the student will learn? We teach a chop (sorry, handsword) to the throat at yellow belt. If you truly wanted to argue this, you should argue that the student shouldn't BEGIN training until they are 18, which would promptly put 99% of commercial schools right out of business.

I am not a supporter of kiddie karate, but being 16 is not a child. In fact, it is far deadlier to give a driving license to a 16 year old than it will ever be to give a black belt.

Lamont

Like I said, it was a posit for exposure to an alternate view, not necessarily my opinion. In the eyes of the law, liability and collateral liability of the day, 16 is a minor, which means that the legal adults who are responsible for their welfare and education are partly responsible for the education/accoutability/actions. Teachers in public schools fall under the heading of 'geographical parents' or 'in locus parenti' (if I have the latin correctly).

By itself, a 'no black belt under 18 policy' is a cop out. But, if it is a policy within a sound ideology of moral considerations, the curriculum for minor students - with or without a junior BB program - would have to be modified so that it was developmentally appropriate for children. This might mean that an instructor would eliminate certain techniques/drills/forms that he deems inappropriate for a minor student. When the student is of the appointed age, 18 based on the discussion - but not necessarily only 18 because some award Adult BB's at 16 - the adult components of the program would be reinserted, trained and upon meeting quality standards the junior BB, or former minor Brown Blt, would be award an adult BB.

When I begin teaching my son to use firearms, it will be fundamentally based. Basic marksmanship, safety, muzzle awareness.... and then for sportsmanship: hunting, clay/skeet shooting, and so on. I wouldn't think it would be appropriate to introduce him to dynamic/self defense shooting until he was of legal age to do so. He might be capable of lethal force, but because I would be modeling the example of responsible progressions and responsibility in each progression, I know that I would be doing the best I could to demonstrate/teach a moral and ethical practices within a framework.

At the minimal level of motivation, it would be more defensible if I were being suspected/sued/charged for colateral liability if a minor student were to get in trouble using something I showed him.

 

[parkerkarate]

I do know how devistating these techniques can be such as Peircing Lance and Twisted Twig. I know how dangerous they are also. Therefore I know not to go up against either of these weapons unless there is absolutely no other choice, unless I know that it is either do or die. Now I am 20 years old. But at that age, yes I did not totally understand how overkillish (I know that is not a word) and how deadly alot of those techinques are. It was not my fault that I was put into the adult program, I was too big for the other teenagers. But now that I have gone back and actually analized what the heck I am doing I totally agree with your view point. But as you said I did show maturity and reponsibilty therefore my instructor decided I was ready. Trust me I have not taken a belt test that I have not been confortable doing or that my instructor said not to. If that makes sense. There are other young adults and teenagers that are getting the same degrees that I am. Just at the last WKKA camp two of my good freinds tested for their adult black belts. One is 14 and the other is 17. So as you can see we are showing that we are ready to take the responsibility if getting these adult black belt degrees and also to pass our knowledge onto lower belts. Adults and children. I am not mad, just frusturated. And there is no way that I would ever give up going for my Third degree black belt in the near future because I have come this far an I am not going to turn back. But thank you for your opinion.

 

[loki09789]

But as you said I did show maturity and reponsibilty therefore my instructor decided I was ready.

One is 14 and the other is 17. So as you can see we are showing that we are ready to take the responsibility if getting these adult black belt degrees and also to pass our knowledge onto lower belts. Adults and children.

And, I truly believe that not only did you show the intrinsic qualities of maturity and responsibility, but that you developed better maturity and responsibility because of the 'adult' expectations that were placed on you in the program. Congrads to all of you.

Childhood has been extended for so long in our culture that it is ridiculous. I remember a National Geo special about an indiginous tribe in Indonesia where a 7 year old carried a machete blade everywere and was encouraged to chop wood and use it for practical reasons. On the video, he demonstrated the subtle control of that machete to stop in mid swing to avoid his toddler little sister who walked into the blade path while he was chopping on a log.

I think children and adults alike have a tendency to rise or fall to standards that are consistently reinforced standards -high or low. Think about the phenomenon of how a top rated sports team will loose to a lower level team on occasion because they 'played down' to the other teams level, or - more realistically - the lower level team 'played up' to the higher level team. Both teams responded to the environmental 'standard' that they percieved. One team percieved that they didn't have to work so hard, the other rose to the occasion.

Today, we have 'children' the same age as soldiers of the American Rev./Civil War who are not responsible/accoutable. That has as much to do with societal perceptions impose on them that they are just 'kids' as it has to do with the 'problem with kids nowadays.'

I do think that Martial Arts training - in a solid program, along with outdoors hobbies (rock climbing, hunting, fishing....) along with community service activies (volunteerism in some capacity even through Boyscouts, church groups), jobs (part time/full time - only during the summer ) and sports programs all contribute the necessary responsibility/accountability development of younger people.

Unfortunately, in our culture today all of this is deemed 'good training for the real world' which only leaves the perception in young people that they have no contributions to make - and we wonder why 18-29 year olds are the lowest voting demographic. We have told them they are powerless, so they don't take charge of the power they do have.