What are the fighting characteristics, principles, and techniques that you learned from gicho hyung ill bu? I'd like to get a quick survey on just what people are learning from this most basic of hyung.
The fighting characteristics, principles and techniques of Gicho Hyung Ill Bu
- Thread starter Makalakumu
- Start date
Taiji_Mantis
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2007
- Messages
- 64
- Reaction score
- 4
Sorry. This may not be much help to ya, but I learned how to become coordinated with this pattern. I learned how to make my body move in a way it hadn't previously been accustomed to.
Now, looking back, I can see the rooted stance and footwork, and the hidden throws and things... but as far as what was learned... I learned how to "walk" with that set.
Now, looking back, I can see the rooted stance and footwork, and the hidden throws and things... but as far as what was learned... I learned how to "walk" with that set.
UpN, is this the same thing as Kicho Il Jang in TKD (= Taikyoku Shodon from Shotokan)? 'Cause I have a story about the bunkai for that...
Ah... according to these people, they're the same thing. More later, but for now, a preview: this kicho teaches you how to pin the attacker's aggessive arm, put weight into the armlock to force their head down, then deliver two elbow strikes to their lowered head—one up, one in the face coming down (the 'chamber')—en route crushing their windpipe/breaking their nose/breaking their collarbone with the hammerfist strike that Itosu disguised as a 'down block'. And followup with either a punch or palm-heel strike to their face, or, if you're in a very bad mood, the same hikite/punch combination of movements has a direct application as a neck-breaking head-twist.
Gory details to follow...
Ah... according to these people, they're the same thing. More later, but for now, a preview: this kicho teaches you how to pin the attacker's aggessive arm, put weight into the armlock to force their head down, then deliver two elbow strikes to their lowered head—one up, one in the face coming down (the 'chamber')—en route crushing their windpipe/breaking their nose/breaking their collarbone with the hammerfist strike that Itosu disguised as a 'down block'. And followup with either a punch or palm-heel strike to their face, or, if you're in a very bad mood, the same hikite/punch combination of movements has a direct application as a neck-breaking head-twist.
Gory details to follow...
So here's my take on the gory details....
I interpret the sequence
as a `minimal combat sequence', a set of practical combat instructions which assume a certain common kind of violence initiator, in this case a grab by the attacker to the defender's arm, shoulder or shirt (research by Patrick McCarthy, reported and documented in Bill Burgar's Five Years. One Kata and J. W. Tichen's Heian Flow System, suggests that a significant fraction of street attacks start with just such a move). The situation in question assumes that, as per the usual violent confrontation, attacker and defender starting off face-to-face. Assume for concreteness that the attack is initated by a righthand wrist grab by the attacker, to the defender's right wrist, arm or shirtfront.
The actual combat moves encrypted by (i)–(iii) are decodable, on one bunkai decoding, as (i)'–(iii)' respectively, where (i)' is the combat interpretation of the moves that are concealed within the movements described in (i), etc.
(i)' the defender covers the attacker's wrist with his own right fist, or reverses the wrist grab—this is one of the very earliest SD techs we teach them—and in either case, simultaneously (a) twists the captured wrist counterclockwise, and (b) turns quickly counterclockwise pulling on the wrist—this is the concealed meaning of the apparent presentation of the defenders left side to the the attacker at the outside of the form (something that would be suicidal to do in a street confrontation, obviously)...
(ii)' followed by simultaneously (c) driving the left forearm against the attacker's now forcibly extended right arm just above the elbow (the lower part of the `chambering' phase of the `down block'), (d) hikite of the trapped fist by the defender's `chamberinging retraction' of the right fist (pulling the attackers right fist into a maximally extended positon to give the defender's arm pin on the attacker maximum leverage and trapping the attacker in position) and projection of the defender's full body weight forward into the pin via the front-stance movement, forcibly driving the attacker's upper body down and exposing their lowered head to the defender's upcoming counterattack.
Having driven the attacker into a lowered position via the arm pin described, the defender (e) quickly moves the left arm from its pinning position to near the defender's right ear into an arcing upward elbow strike to the side of the attacker's lowered head, continuing up to a position above the defender's right ear, and then lowers it in hammerfist strike or knifehand to major targets on the attacker's head: the carotid sinus or larynx. This downcoming strike can be subdivided at the defender's discretion into (e1) a spearhand elbow strike to the attacker's face (eyes are a good target) and (e2) the payoff hand strike to the selected target. The main lesson of the whole subsequence is contained here: if you can trap the attacker's arm while going outside, you own him and the fight is effectively over, assuming a correct continuation.
(iii)' A smooth muchimi shift of the striking left hand to a grab on the attacker's ear/hair/collar is immediately followed by a simultaneous (f)hikite retraction of the left fist to pull the injured attacker in and around and (g) a right-hand strike (maybe a fist, but I think a palm-heel strike is sounder) to the attacker's face with the full weight of the defender's body moving into a right front stance.
(iii)" An alternative analysis has (f)' the retraction translating to a grip on the attacker's ear or hair, pulling it back while at the same time (g)' the 'punch' supplies torque on the other side of the attacker's head so that a neck break results. Picture a good firm grip on the attacker's head with both hands and an extremely sharp twist (left hand pull while right hand pushes around) and you have the picture...
By this point, the confrontation should be effectively over (the blows must be delivered rapidly and with significant force, accurately placed, of course). So this three-move sequence has an internal logic to it that makes it useful to teach as a minimal combat episode. When I teach Kicho Il Jang, I therefore start with this sequence.
However, the actual logic of the sequence doesn't end there; in principle, the 180º pivot that corresponds to move (iv) and appears to merely set up a repetition of the same sequence on the other side is, on its most effective combat interpretation, something more than that: it's part of a throw which follows a muchimi transfer of the right hand's attacking role in (iii)' to a hold which plays together with the sharp pivot in the 180º rotation to unbalance the now very damaged attacker and set up the finale. On that scenario, the effective combat sequence doesn't end until move (v) on the righthand side of embusen line of the form. The problem is, pivoting is a tricky enough skill for beginners that it's probably better to teach that separately and drill students on it so that they get the feel of a balanced, rapid reversal of orientation using the ball of their pivoting foot, which usually takes a few classes to `get'. In my own instruction, I just take students from (i) to (iii) as I indicated above, and add in the followup throwing and subsequent techs later.
I'm still working on a plausible analysis for the three punches up the line from moves 6 through 8. Taken literally, the sequence strikes me as absurd; but I suspect that at least one of those 'punches' corresponds to a neck twist of the kind I suggested above.
I interpret the sequence
(i) ready position, preparatory to a 90º turn into a left front stance/down block;
(ii) 90º turn into a left front stance/down block with chambering retraction of the right fist;
(iii) movement into right front stance/middle lunge punch with chambering retraction of the left fist...
(ii) 90º turn into a left front stance/down block with chambering retraction of the right fist;
(iii) movement into right front stance/middle lunge punch with chambering retraction of the left fist...
as a `minimal combat sequence', a set of practical combat instructions which assume a certain common kind of violence initiator, in this case a grab by the attacker to the defender's arm, shoulder or shirt (research by Patrick McCarthy, reported and documented in Bill Burgar's Five Years. One Kata and J. W. Tichen's Heian Flow System, suggests that a significant fraction of street attacks start with just such a move). The situation in question assumes that, as per the usual violent confrontation, attacker and defender starting off face-to-face. Assume for concreteness that the attack is initated by a righthand wrist grab by the attacker, to the defender's right wrist, arm or shirtfront.
The actual combat moves encrypted by (i)–(iii) are decodable, on one bunkai decoding, as (i)'–(iii)' respectively, where (i)' is the combat interpretation of the moves that are concealed within the movements described in (i), etc.
(i)' the defender covers the attacker's wrist with his own right fist, or reverses the wrist grab—this is one of the very earliest SD techs we teach them—and in either case, simultaneously (a) twists the captured wrist counterclockwise, and (b) turns quickly counterclockwise pulling on the wrist—this is the concealed meaning of the apparent presentation of the defenders left side to the the attacker at the outside of the form (something that would be suicidal to do in a street confrontation, obviously)...
(ii)' followed by simultaneously (c) driving the left forearm against the attacker's now forcibly extended right arm just above the elbow (the lower part of the `chambering' phase of the `down block'), (d) hikite of the trapped fist by the defender's `chamberinging retraction' of the right fist (pulling the attackers right fist into a maximally extended positon to give the defender's arm pin on the attacker maximum leverage and trapping the attacker in position) and projection of the defender's full body weight forward into the pin via the front-stance movement, forcibly driving the attacker's upper body down and exposing their lowered head to the defender's upcoming counterattack.
Having driven the attacker into a lowered position via the arm pin described, the defender (e) quickly moves the left arm from its pinning position to near the defender's right ear into an arcing upward elbow strike to the side of the attacker's lowered head, continuing up to a position above the defender's right ear, and then lowers it in hammerfist strike or knifehand to major targets on the attacker's head: the carotid sinus or larynx. This downcoming strike can be subdivided at the defender's discretion into (e1) a spearhand elbow strike to the attacker's face (eyes are a good target) and (e2) the payoff hand strike to the selected target. The main lesson of the whole subsequence is contained here: if you can trap the attacker's arm while going outside, you own him and the fight is effectively over, assuming a correct continuation.
(iii)' A smooth muchimi shift of the striking left hand to a grab on the attacker's ear/hair/collar is immediately followed by a simultaneous (f)hikite retraction of the left fist to pull the injured attacker in and around and (g) a right-hand strike (maybe a fist, but I think a palm-heel strike is sounder) to the attacker's face with the full weight of the defender's body moving into a right front stance.
(iii)" An alternative analysis has (f)' the retraction translating to a grip on the attacker's ear or hair, pulling it back while at the same time (g)' the 'punch' supplies torque on the other side of the attacker's head so that a neck break results. Picture a good firm grip on the attacker's head with both hands and an extremely sharp twist (left hand pull while right hand pushes around) and you have the picture...
By this point, the confrontation should be effectively over (the blows must be delivered rapidly and with significant force, accurately placed, of course). So this three-move sequence has an internal logic to it that makes it useful to teach as a minimal combat episode. When I teach Kicho Il Jang, I therefore start with this sequence.
However, the actual logic of the sequence doesn't end there; in principle, the 180º pivot that corresponds to move (iv) and appears to merely set up a repetition of the same sequence on the other side is, on its most effective combat interpretation, something more than that: it's part of a throw which follows a muchimi transfer of the right hand's attacking role in (iii)' to a hold which plays together with the sharp pivot in the 180º rotation to unbalance the now very damaged attacker and set up the finale. On that scenario, the effective combat sequence doesn't end until move (v) on the righthand side of embusen line of the form. The problem is, pivoting is a tricky enough skill for beginners that it's probably better to teach that separately and drill students on it so that they get the feel of a balanced, rapid reversal of orientation using the ball of their pivoting foot, which usually takes a few classes to `get'. In my own instruction, I just take students from (i) to (iii) as I indicated above, and add in the followup throwing and subsequent techs later.
I'm still working on a plausible analysis for the three punches up the line from moves 6 through 8. Taken literally, the sequence strikes me as absurd; but I suspect that at least one of those 'punches' corresponds to a neck twist of the kind I suggested above.
Taiji_Mantis
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2007
- Messages
- 64
- Reaction score
- 4
From what perspective are we looking at this?
My thought was what we learned from Kicho hyung when we were taught the form. That was originally what we learned, right?
The other way of looking at this is what we have learned over time, with the benefit of experience.
I'm still not sure as to what it is you are looking for.
C
My thought was what we learned from Kicho hyung when we were taught the form. That was originally what we learned, right?
The other way of looking at this is what we have learned over time, with the benefit of experience.
I'm still not sure as to what it is you are looking for.
C
OP
- Thread Starter
- #6
Both.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
Gicho hyung ill bu is the same as taikyoku shodan and most of the other Korean varients are related. This is important because this implies a certain amount of meaning that requires a bit of explanation.
Now, here's what I learned when I learned this form. We learned about stances and moving in a pattern. We learned about proper attitude and posture for performing a hyung. We learned that hyung contain hidden techniques. A few examples were shown. My teacher was good about this. He made sure that we all knew that forms were much more then meets the eye.
Subsequently, here is what I have gleaned from further research.
These formed were NOT part of the original system crafted by Itosu sensei. The pinan set was considered the basic codex of techniques that would a student develop in order perform more advanced hyungs.
Of course, all of these forms were watered down. He explicitly writes this several times as his intent was to create a physical education system. With that being said, students on Itosu's inner circle were taught "kijion" or the secrets of reverting the forms back to their pre-sanitized condition.
Now, here is the story that I learned. Funakoshi Sensei created these forms in order to teach students how to properly use the left and right side of their bodies. He also created these forms in order to codify the "kijion" that Itosu taught him. This is why it is always said that these basic forms contain the keys to karate.
This little bit of esoteria is important because a lot of the moves in these forms are not just meant to be taken literally in the sense that they are manipulating an opponent. They are also literal symbols much akin to mnemotic devices.
So, what does this hyung really have to teach us?
As far as principles go, I would say that the very first thing a student should learn is the principle of gathering and protecting the centerline in order to intercept an attack. Footwork concepts like getting offline and attacking or penetrating and/or unbalancing are also addressed. The retracting hand and some grappling applications can also be addressed along with related concepts like fitting for both nage and tuite.
What about the so-called "kijion" mentioned above? Well, the one two cadence that is taught with all of the move sequences is an express lesson on entering and penetrating.
The series of "strikes" down the middle is a lesson on two things, how long a fight should last and how to interpret sequences of more advanced hyungs.
The repetition left and right of this form is a lesson that teaches that all applications in all forms can be performed on both sides.
There's a lot more that I just don't know about this hyung, but this is what I've gleaned so far...
Now, here's what I learned when I learned this form. We learned about stances and moving in a pattern. We learned about proper attitude and posture for performing a hyung. We learned that hyung contain hidden techniques. A few examples were shown. My teacher was good about this. He made sure that we all knew that forms were much more then meets the eye.
Subsequently, here is what I have gleaned from further research.
These formed were NOT part of the original system crafted by Itosu sensei. The pinan set was considered the basic codex of techniques that would a student develop in order perform more advanced hyungs.
Of course, all of these forms were watered down. He explicitly writes this several times as his intent was to create a physical education system. With that being said, students on Itosu's inner circle were taught "kijion" or the secrets of reverting the forms back to their pre-sanitized condition.
Now, here is the story that I learned. Funakoshi Sensei created these forms in order to teach students how to properly use the left and right side of their bodies. He also created these forms in order to codify the "kijion" that Itosu taught him. This is why it is always said that these basic forms contain the keys to karate.
This little bit of esoteria is important because a lot of the moves in these forms are not just meant to be taken literally in the sense that they are manipulating an opponent. They are also literal symbols much akin to mnemotic devices.
So, what does this hyung really have to teach us?
As far as principles go, I would say that the very first thing a student should learn is the principle of gathering and protecting the centerline in order to intercept an attack. Footwork concepts like getting offline and attacking or penetrating and/or unbalancing are also addressed. The retracting hand and some grappling applications can also be addressed along with related concepts like fitting for both nage and tuite.
What about the so-called "kijion" mentioned above? Well, the one two cadence that is taught with all of the move sequences is an express lesson on entering and penetrating.
The series of "strikes" down the middle is a lesson on two things, how long a fight should last and how to interpret sequences of more advanced hyungs.
The repetition left and right of this form is a lesson that teaches that all applications in all forms can be performed on both sides.
There's a lot more that I just don't know about this hyung, but this is what I've gleaned so far...
Well, true, but as I say, I think the pivots to the opposite side are also to be read as parts of throws. The first five moves of the kicho can be read as a single continuous combination of strikes, locks and throws on the attacker, as per my previous posts. I'd rather start from the premise that the pivots are part of a tech, and see where that goes, than assume it's just a simple mirror image of the technique just presented. It can be that of course, and in some cases may be nothing elseif so, there won't be a plausible way to interpret the left and right performances as part of a single combat sequence. But in the case of kicho il jang, I do think the 180º pivots can be read in practical terms as throwing moves...
OP
- Thread Starter
- #9
The 180 degree turns can and should be interpreted as throws. Maybe not immediately, but should eventually. The concept of gathering, protecting the center, intercepting, fitting, and redirecting all flow into these kind of turns. A lot of this can be enhanced by the way you perform the technique. Being very concientious to the position of the hands in the intermediate position and understanding how they would block, strike and grab is going to help the student better visualize what is happening.
One of the dangers of teaching hyung bunkai is that it can get very overwhelming very quickly. If you dump too many applications without buidling scaffolds to those applications, the student will not only be lost, but they will be unable to utilize any of them for self defense.
There's nothing wrong with a revisit to old material for advanced students.
One of the dangers of teaching hyung bunkai is that it can get very overwhelming very quickly. If you dump too many applications without buidling scaffolds to those applications, the student will not only be lost, but they will be unable to utilize any of them for self defense.
There's nothing wrong with a revisit to old material for advanced students.
Yeah, and as always, teaching general principles based on overarching concepts is the key. If you present a bunch of scattered recipes for the student to memorize, it's just another 'top-down', you-do-it-this-way-because-I'm-telling-you-to dictum that doesn't help students see the logic of the action at the context of the whole combat sequence. They aren't learning to thing strategically. A bunch of tactics unguided by a strategic plan is like... well, it's like memorizing a bunch of chess minisequences to use whenever you see a chance, regardless of whether you're attacking or defending, on the king's or queen's side, in the opening, midgame or endgame. The way you use tools really depends on the job you're trying to do, as any carpenter will tell you!
The particular thing that this kicho teaches nicely, in an accessible way, I think, is how to combine a move to the attacker's outside with immobilization of the attack, so that you can launch your counterstrikes from a position of relative safety. Given that you're starting off facing the attacker and he (as a given of being the attacker) has the initiative, what should you do?? All the kihon techs in the world, no matter how good you are at them, won't help you if you don't know what to do with them. So with kicho il jang/bu, my emphasis to students is that the link between his body and yours, his grabbing arm in particular, which seems so intimidating, can actually be the kiss of death for him if you can learn how to immobilize it and using control of that limb to get yourself outside the attack. Every move from that point on (i) applies a strike, (ii) converts the previous striking limb to a controlling limb, and (iii) sets up the next strike.
The idea of a continuous flow of close-in damaging impacts, delivered to the attacker's most vulnerable places, giving him no chance to get back in the game—like running the table in a very high stakes pool game—is a good one to get students thinking about; unfortunately, the standard dojang practice of repetitive blows to the air as isolated kihon movements gets students thinking about responding to an attack in a way that's antithetical to this unbroken-attack-flow notion. The great thing about hyungs is that they show how to restore that sense of the relentless flow of an attack, as long as the movements are translated as combat moves correctly, and vital parts of the interpretation, such as the muchimi transitions of striking hands to controlling hands, is made explicit. But hyungs in general aren't taught that way, I don't think...
... which is exactly why this observation is true, and will continue to be true. I've talked with fairly advanced karateka who had no idea that the taikyoku katas are interpretable along these line. It's the very simplicity of these forms, the fact that they aren't especially demanding athletically or full of complex movements, that makes them ideal introduction to the use of this continuous flowing counterattack approach to SD. Students don't have to be distracted by physically difficult or complicated movement sequences, but the gist of the idea is present in the kichos just as much as in the more advanced hyung that they'll learn.
Similar threads
Latest Discussions
-
Taiji Quan for Self Defense- Latest: windwalker099
-
-
-