Doing hyung backwards?

[JT_the_Ninja]

As I was the only one in the 8:00 class tonight, my sa bom nim pushed me to my limits, physically and in terms of technique. The most challenging task, from a technique perspective, was the following: starting at the last move of gicho hyung il bu, I was to perform the whole form, from last technique to first technique. It made me think very seriously about each move, isolating them. Of course, all my 260 turns were epic fails, but all the same it was a useful exercise, from my point of view. When I have time, I think I'll work on practicing other hyung in the same manner.

What are all yinz's opinions on this type of exercise?

 

[exile]

I've no doubt it's a very, very demanding exercise, but I don't quite see what work it does. If the logic of the 'forward' sequence is guided by the applications, corresponding to sequences of tactical moves in response to an attacker's initiation of violence, what is the meaning of any such sequence run backwards? So, e.g., if I have a hyung expressing a trap via a pin, followed by a forward transfer of weight into the pin to force the assailant's head down, followed by a spearing elbow strike, the motivation for the hyung sequence is clear-cut; but the same hyung sequence backwards makes little sense. I'm not sure where the gain is...

 

[Steel Tiger]

I've no doubt it's a very, very demanding exercise, but I don't quite see what work it does. If the logic of the 'forward' sequence is guided by the applications, corresponding to sequences of tactical moves in response to an attacker's initiation of violence, what is the meaning of any such sequence run backwards? So, e.g., if I have a hyung expressing a trap via a pin, followed by a forward transfer of weight into the pin to force the assailant's head down, followed by a spearing elbow strike, the motivation for the hyung sequence is clear-cut; but the same hyung sequence backwards makes little sense. I'm not sure where the gain is...

I guess it has to do with our different approaches (CMA vs KMA) but what you describe would be, to me, a single element of a form. That might be why CMA forms are so long. But what it means is that each element is a larger descrete unit that can stand alone without reference to other elements.

I have seen many students who use the momentum of a previous element to carry them through the next. I have also seen many, many students go through forms on cruise control as a kind of physical wrote learning takes over. There is no individualised technique effort or thought is the performance. It can also lead to some extremely bad habits.

Our Tiger form, for instance, has a sequence of kicks (turning tiger/side kick, jumping crane/piercing kick, whirlwind kick/full spinning jumping crescent kick). The number of times I have seen the crane kick suffer because of the student looking for the momentum to carry them into the whirlwind kick is disheartening. A jumping crane kick is a head kick not a groin kick afterall. It is a bad habit that results from not only knowing what is next but thinking about more about the technique after the next than the one you are doing.

I can actually see the value is working through the form elements in a different order.

I do agree that forms etc, are put together with a logical sequence which is driven by a guiding principle or concept. That concept is only properly revealed when the form elements are done in the right order. But there is value is getting students to think about the way they enter techniques individually rather than just flow into them because they are next in the sequence.

 

[exile]

I guess it has to do with our different approaches (CMA vs KMA) but what you describe would be, to me, a single element of a form. That might be why CMA forms are so long. But what it means is that each element is a larger descrete unit that can stand alone without reference to other elements.

Yes, this is the way I see hyungs: as a collection of smaller three- or four- movement sequences each of which represents a kind of stand-alone combat scenario exemplifying at least one of the guiding principles of the art.

I have seen many students who use the momentum of a previous element to carry them through the next. I have also seen many, many students go through forms on cruise control as a kind of physical wrote learning takes over. There is no individualised technique effort or thought is the performance. It can also lead to some extremely bad habits.

Our Tiger form, for instance, has a sequence of kicks (turning tiger/side kick, jumping crane/piercing kick, whirlwind kick/full spinning jumping crescent kick). The number of times I have seen the crane kick suffer because of the student looking for the momentum to carry them into the whirlwind kick is disheartening. A jumping crane kick is a head kick not a groin kick afterall. It is a bad habit that results from not only knowing what is next but thinking about more about the technique after the next than the one you are doing.

I can actually see the value is working through the form elements in a different order.

Mechanical performance is the bane of MA forms, most definitely. But my own inclination would be to have the student practice the hyungs with a different mind-set. Active visualization of the attacker, and equally important, visualization of the realistic combat uses of the movements as the practitioner is performing them in real time. Do the knife-hand strike, but see that striking hand become the grabbing hand, and its return chamber to the side of the torso as the grab that pulls the dazed attacker close in for the next strike delivered by the other hand/arm. I've trained forms along those lines for quite a while now and it's a great cure for either the automaton-like habits you're referring to or the ballet-performer quest for pretty, elegant poses, at the expense of combat utility.

I do agree that forms etc, are put together with a logical sequence which is driven by a guiding principle or concept. That concept is only properly revealed when the form elements are done in the right order. But there is value is getting students to think about the way they enter techniques individually rather than just flow into them because they are next in the sequence.

There's no question, people get lazy and do prearranged actions by rote. My guess is, though, a lot of them would be less inclined to do that if they realized what the practical application of the forms actually was. For many folks, forms are indeed just 'going through the moves', because no one is challenging them to approach them as practical tools for close-quarter SD.

 

[crushing]

Funny you should bring that up. Just last night we did Pyung Ah Sam Dan Hyung backwards, just for fun. The windmill 'blocks' along with just about everything else got me! . Then my teacher said he had a student that would do the form forwards, then backwards when learning a new form and somehow that helped her memorize it.

 

[SamT]

There's no question, people get lazy and do prearranged actions by rote. My guess is, though, a lot of them would be less inclined to do that if they realized what the practical application of the forms actually was. For many folks, forms are indeed just 'going through the moves', because no one is challenging them to approach them as practical tools for close-quarter SD.

While I only started TSD recently, I have talked to my instructor about hyungs and their applications, and while explaining, he addressed that issue. Sadly, there are still instructors who simply teach the movements, not the form. Often it's not the fault of the student, but rather of the instructor.

If it helps you out, my other instructor (married couple, both E Dans) said that after getting the basic moves of your form fine tuned, you can start imagining that you are actually in a combat situation, and need to perform that hyung. To help with that, I'll quote one of the regional masters at a recent WTSDA Black Belt test I attended, "If you can remember seeing someone's face, or if you notice anything unnecessary outside of your form, you're not focusing enough."

EDIT: Eek, I missed exile's post. He pretty much said what I just said. I agree fully.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Mechanical performance is the bane of MA forms, most definitely. But my own inclination would be to have the student practice the hyungs with a different mind-set. Active visualization of the attacker, and equally important, visualization of the realistic combat uses of the movements as the practitioner is performing them in real time. Do the knife-hand strike, but see that striking hand become the grabbing hand, and its return chamber to the side of the torso as the grab that pulls the dazed attacker close in for the next strike delivered by the other hand/arm. I've trained forms along those lines for quite a while now and it's a great cure for either the automaton-like habits you're referring to or the ballet-performer quest for pretty, elegant poses, at the expense of combat utility.

This is the best method I have found for getting a good understanding and performance of forms out of a student. It does tend to fly in the face of traditional teaching methods (just like going backwards does) in that it encourages an understanding of the application before the mechanics of the form are fully assimilated. But we have to do what we have to do. Students aren't with us seven days a week, and if you don't have 30 hours to train in you have to make do with the 4-6 you do have.

Now that I think about it some more I have a feeling that a lot of this laxness must stem from laziness on the part of the teacher. In that the forms are being done the way they are because the teacher doesn't properly teach the applications, possibly because they don't know them, or because they don't pay enough attention to the performances of their students (class size can be a real issue in this regard).

It looks like JT and Crushing don't have either of these problems.

If I may ask a question. How often do any of you extract a section from a form and work its applications and variations for an extended period?

 

[exile]

This is the best method I have found for getting a good understanding and performance of forms out of a student. It does tend to fly in the face of traditional teaching methods (just like going backwards does) in that it encourages an understanding of the application before the mechanics of the form are fully assimilated. But we have to do what we have to do. Students aren't with us seven days a week, and if you don't have 30 hours to train in you have to make do with the 4-6 you do have.

Now that I think about it some more I have a feeling that a lot of this laxness must stem from laziness on the part of the teacher. In that the forms are being done the way they are because the teacher doesn't properly teach the applications, possibly because they don't know them, or because they don't pay enough attention to the performances of their students (class size can be a real issue in this regard).

I think that even where the instructor knows the applications, in a deep way, not the cookbook surface interpretation that a lot of 'standard' applications consist of, there is a kind of problem in teaching the student to extract those applications by visualizing how the motions in the sequence could be used outside of the standard block/punch/kick packaging. There's probably a tendency to wait too long to get students to learn that skill. By the time they get to shodan, their mindset may well be fixed in the 'forms as performance pieces' rather than 'forms as instruction sets' mode.

It looks like JT and Crushing don't have either of these problems.

If I may ask a question. How often do any of you extract a section from a form and work its applications and variations for an extended period?

I do this pretty much constantly, because I'm never really satisfied with the applications I come up with. I have poor 3-D visualization abilities, and it's difficult for me to easily picture how the attacker's body is responding to an alignment of forces that result from specific motions on my part. It's something I have to work at all the time. One of the great things about the work of people like Abernethy is that even if you don't have great spatial/biomechanical visualization abilities, you can begin to see when you look at enough of his demonstrations just how the body is responding to the application of certain physical constraints and forces. For me it's very much a (hard-) learned skill, so I have to do it in a very conscious deliberate way. I envy people with good spatial-orientation abilities...

 

[e ship yuk]

To help with that, I'll quote one of the regional masters at a recent WTSDA Black Belt test I attended, "If you can remember seeing someone's face, or if you notice anything unnecessary outside of your form, you're not focusing enough."

I understand the sentiment behind it, but I think I disagree with this statement. I want a student to be able to tell me things about his surroundings when he's done with the form - how many times did I walk around you? Were student A's eyes open or closed when you were facing him? I want him to be aware not only of what he's doing, but of what is going on around him.

A black belt at a tournament we attended once put this to great use. Performing a staff hyung which starts with three large 360 degree swings, staff fully extended, a small child ran across his ring. He stopped the staff mid swing, right in front of the child's face.

Hyung backwards: as someone else mentioned, this is good as mental exercise; I prefer doing a hyung starting on the opposite side as better one, though - the techniques still make sense, it's just challenging your less practiced sides.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Wow bigger response than I expected.

My stance on the exercise remains the same: it's useful. Maybe not, as some have pointed out, if you're looking at the exercise as practicing the encoded techniques which direct the sequence, but it is useful for thinking about what you're going to do next, paying attention to how you move your body, and really picking apart each thing that you do. Another exercise my sa bom nim has us do sometimes involves doing our advanced basics backwards, which are typically three moves in sequence, such as hadan mahko, tora choong dan kong kyuk, sang dan mahkee. That's the most basic one of the set, and the easiest to do backwards, but as you go through, you really have to think about what would make sense for the transition from one move to the next, moving backwards. All of a sudden, moving forward and blocking is not dodging to the side and deflecting but stepping back to avoid a strike and deflecting. Stuff like that. Really makes you think about what you do and how you move.

Then there are times when we'll do forms, but facing a different way in the dojang than typical. A big trap some beginners fall into is basing "what to do next" on "where am I facing in the room." When you get out of that familiar setting, that becomes a problem. I often practice hyung in different orientations and even, as someone else pointed out, with the opposite side. In fact, I've been doing that more lately, since it helps, when going through a form with a younger person, to act as a mirror, especially for hyung like the keema hyung (read: naihanchi), where you can just stay right in front of the person and act as a mirror until they get it down, at which point you step away and make them do it on their own. Either way, practicing the mirror version of a form makes sure you're not just practicing by rote and "going through the motions."

Good comments all, and thanks for responding!

Tang Soo!

 

[thesandman]

To the OP, I've never tried to do my forms literally backwards, however I have on many occasions done the mirror image. I find that exercise to be very useful. Especially forms that are linear (like the Naihanji forms) it can be fun to have one student doing it normal and another student facing them doing the mirror image.

 

[DatFlow]

To know a form boackwards and fowards I guess would really increase the muscle memory object of the forms. I think that by learning them to the point of doing them as good as fowards as backwards, will help you in the long run, not so much in the memorization, but beinig so corridinated... does anyone agree?

 

[MBuzzy]

It seems to me that it all comes down to how you view a hyung. Is it for performance or for application? If for performance, this is a great technique....if for application, it is of limited usage, although can help quite a bit in memorization.

 

[e ship yuk]

It seems to me that it all comes down to how you view a hyung. Is it for performance or for application? If for performance, this is a great technique....if for application, it is of limited usage, although can help quite a bit in memorization.

It's funny the things that will stick with you about a form. We used to do a version of the Shorei-ryu form Go Pei Sho we called Iron Claw. Starts very similar to Naihanchi, with a step across, step out into horse stance. When I was being taught this form, my instructor paused for a moment, said "One second," and started Naihanchi. He stopped after the first step, and then started teaching the new form. He had to do so because Iron Claw starts in the opposite direction as Naihanchi, and his brain locked it in that way, instead of "start to the right."

To this day, if I am teaching Iron Claw, I have to take the first step of Naihanchi, or I will get it wrong. Probably only because I know that story.

 

[Lynne]

I have a headache just thinking about doing a hyung from last move to first move

I can definitely see the memorization and mental training benefits.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I have a headache just thinking about doing a hyung from last move to first move

I can definitely see the memorization and mental training benefits.

Indeed, but apart from being able to say you've memorized a form "forwards and backwards," it's a useful exercise in terms of visualizing your space, working on your foot placement, and just really thinking, instead of going through the motions. Then, you can do the form forwards and, with a better awareness of what's around you and where you're moving, begin to visualize the applications encoded in hyung.

The other night it was just me and another e dan in class, and one of the exercises sa bom nim had us do was just red belt one-step sparring, but with the opposite side. Really hurt our brains, but it was worth it.