The Eye as a Target

[drop bear]

And I was 58 in my last tournament nearly 10 years ago. Is that meant to prove something? The reference to Golden Gloves was irony. Give me a break. I teach martial arts to the best of my ability. We are not all fit young guys fuelled with testosterone training for our next fight. If the guys I train wanted to fight in the ring their training would be totally different. We don't all have to train as you train, if indeed you train at all. We accept that you do what you say you do even though no one here has seen you train.

Well I am not suggesting you train as I train. I am suggesting you test the delivery system for eyegouges to see if it works.

Also I would suggest you test the bare knuckle punches if you are making changes to that. But unless you are bare knuckle punching people in the eye (hurts like heck by the way) probably a bit off topic.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well I am not suggesting you train as I train. I am suggesting you test the delivery system for eyegouges to see if it works.

Are you volunteering to let a few of us poke you in the eye?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[drop bear]

Are you volunteering to let a few of us poke you in the eye?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

I would do it with goggles on.

 

[Gnarlie]

What method do you use to test?

Why unnecessary?

First question: we use a range of sparring and other scenarios, both prearranged and free, and incorporate any type of strike. Including boxing. With contact, and with protective equipment where necessary.

Second question: because as I have already said, being able to use the technique against a skilled pugilist or martial artist is not the point of the exercise. That's not what it is for.

I've used it successfully, even by accident. Poking someone in the eye is not a difficult thing to do at all if you have any idea about striking and they have less of an idea. Just like punching someone isn't that difficult if you use the element of surprise and strategically position the set up well. We are not really talking about a fight scenario. We are talking about an execution of a technique supported by a set of principles, preemption and misdirection being two of them. If the oppo has a chance to react, something has gone wrong.

A: Perceives clear threat, deescalation having failed, subtly lines up oppo.
A: "Hey, you used to work at that shop, right?"
B: *Milliseconds thinking of a response*
A: *Interrupts with preemptive poke, nut shot, throat grab, punch to the jaw, whatever*

This type of strategy does not require testing against a boxer. It requires a good strike, on target, and convincing confidence and interpersonal skills for misdirection. By the time the oppo realises the fight has started, it is over.

Different to competitive fighting. Very.

 

[Gnarlie]

The question 'how the hell did you get my watch?' works great as an uppercut or palm heel setup, as it tends to make people look at or gesture with their hands for a moment. For example.

 

[drop bear]

First question: we use a range of sparring and other scenarios, both prearranged and free, and incorporate any type of strike. Including boxing. With contact, and with protective equipment where necessary.

Second question: because as I have already said, being able to use the technique against a skilled pugilist or martial artist is not the point of the exercise. That's not what it is for.

I've used it successfully, even by accident. Poking someone in the eye is not a difficult thing to do at all if you have any idea about striking and they have less of an idea. Just like punching someone isn't that difficult if you use the element of surprise and strategically position the set up well. We are not really talking about a fight scenario. We are talking about an execution of a technique supported by a set of principles, preemption and misdirection being two of them. If the oppo has a chance to react, something has gone wrong.

A: Perceives clear threat, deescalation having failed, subtly lines up oppo.
A: "Hey, you used to work at that shop, right?"
B: *Milliseconds thinking of a response*
A: *Interrupts with preemptive poke, nut shot, throat grab, punch to the jaw, whatever*

This type of strategy does not require testing against a boxer. It requires a good strike, on target, and convincing confidence and interpersonal skills for misdirection. By the time the oppo realises the fight has started, it is over.

Different to competitive fighting. Very.

So the technique is designed to work with the addition of either sucker punching or ambushing rather than work while engaged in a physical exchange with the other guy.

 

[Gnarlie]

So the technique is designed to work with the addition of either sucker punching or ambushing rather than work while engaged in a physical exchange with the other guy.

All first line SD is preemptive, yes. That's why we get into these ongoing circular conversations about magic techniques and fantasy, I think we are talking different contexts. We are not talking fight, we are talking pre-empt. If after pre-empt there is still a fight then make the most of a bad situation. That's the phase to be pressure tested, just in case. But hopefully avoid that via reading the situation and preempting.

Even in the video, the eye strike was still partly preemptive, as soon as the oppo started to move. This drastically increases the percentages of such a technique hitting home.

 

[Gnarlie]

That said, also plenty of situations mid grapple where the opportunity might present itself...and be taken advantage of. I'm not claiming some magic anti grappling BS here, just a tool that can be used when the opportunity is there.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would do it with goggles on.

But that's not real! Neither the impact or the result would be comparable to the Street.

I thought you were convinced that these strikes are ineffective?

 

[drop bear]

But that's not real! Neither the impact or the result would be comparable to the Street.

I thought you were convinced that these strikes are ineffective?

I am not suggesting anybody else have a protectionless eyegouge off either. So I am willing to do the training I suggest others do.

If you want to raise the level then it would be up to you to lead the way on this.

 

[drop bear]

All first line SD is preemptive, yes. That's why we get into these ongoing circular conversations about magic techniques and fantasy, I think we are talking different contexts. We are not talking fight, we are talking pre-empt. If after pre-empt there is still a fight then make the most of a bad situation. That's the phase to be pressure tested, just in case. But hopefully avoid that via reading the situation and preempting.

Even in the video, the eye strike was still partly preemptive, as soon as the oppo started to move. This drastically increases the percentages of such a technique hitting home.

See I would have put the context of a fight. I actually stayed away from being extra duchebaggy with that considering it was a mutually agreed upon fight on a flat surface with a known opponent with no weapons or multiples. And so not self defence but monkey dance or sport.

 

[drop bear]

That said, also plenty of situations mid grapple where the opportunity might present itself...and be taken advantage of. I'm not claiming some magic anti grappling BS here, just a tool that can be used when the opportunity is there.

As a tool its effectiveness is determined by how well you grapple though. Not how well you eye gouge.

 

[Jaysonrd]

Well I am not suggesting you train as I train. I am suggesting you test the delivery system for eyegouges to see if it works.

Also I would suggest you test the bare knuckle punches if you are making changes to that. But unless you are bare knuckle punching people in the eye (hurts like heck by the way) probably a bit off topic.

Instead of an eye gouge where you increase the chances of breaking your fingers what about an eye flick? I learned this from watching this video. I hope this isn't against the rules in regards to leaving a link, but it seems to add to this conversation in regards to is an eye gouge effective. My opinion is it could be, but you increase the chance that you might miss and break your fingers on their nose, forehead, or cheekbone. Then what are you going to do?

Here is that video demonstrating an eye flick and why you shouldn't do an eye gouge.

How To Shut Down A Bigger Attacker With One Simple Move

 

[Gnarlie]

As a tool its effectiveness is determined by how well you grapple though. Not how well you eye gouge.

Agreed.

 

[Gnarlie]

See I would have put the context of a fight. I actually stayed away from being extra duchebaggy with that considering it was a mutually agreed upon fight on a flat surface with a known opponent with no weapons or multiples. And so not self defence but monkey dance or sport.

Agree. Appreciate your restraint.

 

[drop bear]

Instead of an eye gouge where you increase the chances of breaking your fingers what about an eye flick? I learned this from watching this video. I hope this isn't against the rules in regards to leaving a link, but it seems to add to this conversation in regards to is an eye gouge effective. My opinion is it could be, but you increase the chance that you might miss and break your fingers on their nose, forehead, or cheekbone. Then what are you going to do?

Here is that video demonstrating an eye flick and why you shouldn't do an eye gouge.

How To Shut Down A Bigger Attacker With One Simple Move

Eye shots even eye flicks work. The issue is how to get them on target without getting your head punched off.

And people seem to forget that aspect when it comes to these techniques.

 

[K-man]

When people use comments like. "The eye gouges I teach" and "Mine are useless too. Must be that we never pressure test them."

Well you can pressure test them. And you can find out if the eye gouges you teach are the most effective method of teaching them.

We even have kudo masks that would be perfect for this.

Actually kudo masks aren't great for training even though we use them. The problem is one of distance. Even that small difference in range makes a difference both for the striker and the defender. Certainly better than nothing but not perfect.

It is actually another example where martial art is modified by sport, so we'll keep training our eye strikes on the pads.

 

[drop bear]

Actually kudo masks aren't great for training even though we use them. The problem is one of distance. Even that small difference in range makes a difference both for the striker and the defender. Certainly better than nothing but not perfect.

It is actually another example where martial art is modified by sport, so well keep training our eye strikes on the pads.

Which is more realistic because?

 

[K-man]

Eye shots even eye flicks work. The issue is how to get them on target without getting your head punched off.

And people seem to forget that aspect when it comes to these techniques.

Actually, this is not at all logical. It is the same as saying, "jabs work. The same issue applies, how to get them on target without getting your head punched off."

In fact the eye strike is easier because it gives you an extra 4" (10cm) of reach. And what some people don't seem to understand is, I don't care if the fingers don't reach the eyes. I am working on flinch response to get a means of entering to land a follow up punch or grab hold.

 

[K-man]

Which is more realistic because?

Moot point. Neither is realistic but at least with pads you are getting the range right. Tell me now that you don't use pads in your training.