The Blame Game

[Phoenix44]

Thanks for that dissertation on poverty in America, straight from The Heritage Foundation, an ultra-conservative think tank. That article also says that a major reason people are poor is that "they don't work much." Nice. Maybe if they could get a decent paying job with some childcare, they'd work more.

 

[michaeledward]

But if you read closely the article that you "knew about" already, you would have found more information such as the fact that Bush spent more money on the levee funding than did Clinton...I actually agree with Clinton here. He cut 98 flood control relief programs ten years ago, saying that it should be a locally funded project rather than a national one.

Hey, You're slowing down ... it has taken you 10 days to blame this disaster on Clinton.

By the way, it was not - Levee Funding ...

And don't confuse money that Congress put into the budget with what Bush spent. In all of Bush's budgets ... The President had offered about 10% of what Louisiana requested for funds ... Congress then went ahead and provided Louisiana with about 25% of What Louisiana requested.

So, less than half of what was actually spent, can Bushco take credit for.

And who was it that opened up the coastal marshes for development?

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

I didn't blame Clinton for it. I said I agreed with his emphasis on local funding of flood-control projects as that is a state rather than a federal responsibility. But thanks for trying to twist my words around, as usual. My point was that even if you blame Bush for the funding, his proposed funding (not Congress approved) was higher than that of Clinton's, so by extension you have to blame Clinton as well. But as I said, none of that matters whatsoever because any harm to levee spending is a direct result of a lack of political will on the local politicians, and it isn't the role of the federal government to provide that money.

The money was much less than they requested because Louisiana had a track-record of pork-barrel spending, mismanagement, and inefficiency in using funds from the federal government.
I'm still wondering even if you read that article.

"Strock has also said that the marsh-restoration project would not have done much to diminish Katrina's storm surge, which passed east of the coastal wetlands."

 

[Tgace]

Who's to blame? We all are.

1. The mayor of New Orleans. He knows the city. He knows the danger. He knows that during Hurricane Georges in 1998, the use of the Superdome was a disaster and fully two-thirds of the residents never got out of the city. Nothing was done. He declared a mandatory evacuation only 24 hours before Hurricane Katrina hit.

2. The Louisiana governor. It's her job to call up the National Guard and get it to where it has to go. Where the Guard was in the first few days is a mystery. Indeed, she issued an authorization for the National Guard to commandeer school buses to evacuate people on Wednesday afternoon - two days after the hurricane hit.

3. The head of FEMA. Late, slow and in way over his head. On Thursday he says on national television that he didn't even know there were people in the Convention Center, when anybody watching the news could see them there, destitute and desperate. Maybe in his vast bureaucracy he can assign three 20-year-olds to watch cable news and give him hourly updates on what in hell is going on.

4. The president. Late, slow and simply out of tune with the urgency and magnitude of the disaster. The second he heard that the levees had been breached in New Orleans, he should have canceled his schedule and addressed the country on national television to mobilize it both emotionally and physically to assist in the disaster. His flyover on the way to Washington was the worst possible symbolism. And his Friday visit was so tone-deaf that he had to fly back three days later.

5. Congress. Now as always playing holier-than-thou. Perhaps it might ask itself who created the Department of Homeland Security in the first place. The last four years of DHS have been spent principally on bureaucratic reorganization instead of, say, a workable plan for as predictable a disaster as a Gulf Coast hurricane.

6. The American people. They have made it impossible for any politician to make any responsible energy policy over the last 30 years - but that is a column for another day. Now is not the time for constructive suggestions. Now is the time for blame, recriminations and sheer astonishment.

Theres a good sharing of the "blame". Im not saying that the response was acceptable. However Im not too surprised that things turned out the way it did. Try working in the military, guard, EMS, LE professions for a while. Murphy reigns supreme. However Im not going to accept blatant lumping of "blame" to achieve political goals either. Save it for after the clean-up. This stuff helps nobody in the short run.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

Yeah, I saw that article earlier. It's pretty good.

 

[Tgace]

Katrina Response Timeline
Dont let the websites title scare you off. Read the timeline.

 

[Marginal]

Sorry, no cable.

Even if I had it, I don't think that 'The Daily Show' (while quite hilarious) is what I would consider a real credible or unbiased news source.

www.thedailyshow.com has video clips of the commentaries and interviews available for download.

 

[michaeledward]

Found this from a blogger ... to truly appreciate it, you must visit Whitehouse.gov and watch some of Scott McClellan's press briefings from the past two weeks.

"Mark, what's this about you being on academic probation?"

"Listen, mom, there will be a time and a place to discuss what went wrong, and what went right. Right now all our attention and resources need to be on the hard work at hand."

"Have you been going to class?" (more)

"You know, Mom, there are some, you and dad, that want to engage in a blame game. What's important is that there is an ongoing effort to finish the semester, and we need to focus on that, and that's exactly what we're going to do."

"Is your job taking up too much of your time? Are you getting enough sleep that you can concentrate on your schoolwork?"

"Mom I've made it clear that school and work are both priorities, the people of Dick's Sporting Goods that need tennis racquets, they're going to get them. And there are tests and reading to do. And I've made it clear this is important. And its hard work. But we're going to satisfy both priorities."

"Can we be confident that you are not goofing off drinking instead of attending to your studies?"

"I am not going to dignify a personal attack like this with a response. We are focused on getting the important work done right now. This is exactly the kind of thing that distracts us from what needs to be done."

"Well since you dodged my question, I have a follow-up. Are you going to pass?"

"I've already answered that question. There's no time for finger-pointing and playing a blame game."

"I am not playing a blame game. You didn't answer the question, Mark, I asked you a direct question. Yes or no are you going to pass?"

"Im not going to engage you in a blame game."

​

 

[ginshun]

Thanks for that dissertation on poverty in America, straight from The Heritage Foundation, an ultra-conservative think tank. That article also says that a major reason people are poor is that "they don't work much." Nice. Maybe if they could get a decent paying job with some childcare, they'd work more.

What is the major reason people are poor?

Maybe they should worry about getting a decent job before having a bunch of kids.

 

[heretic888]

What is the major reason people are poor?

Maybe they should worry about getting a decent job before having a bunch of kids.

Yawn.

The fundamental duality between Conservatism and Liberalism highlighted yet again. Lefties blame society and external circumstances, whereas Righties blame the individual and internal dispositional traits.

Neither side, of course, being able to champion a collective IQ high enough to realize the answer is "both/and", not "either/or".

Yawn.

 

[Flatlander]

Mod Note:

Anonymous reputation discussion split to here. Please carry on there. Thank you.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[Tgace]

Another excellent article that shares the blame in fair ammounts...

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/12612851.htm

The Federal Emergency Management Agency, its top ranks filled by political appointees and its budget hit by deep cuts, seemed unable to grasp the magnitude of the disaster. On the day after the storm, FEMA director Michael Brown met in Biloxi, Miss., with Gov. Haley Barbour, a former Republican National Committee chairman, and told him not to worry, because FEMA had had lots of hurricane practice in Florida. "I don't think you've seen anything like this," Barbour responded. "We're talking nuclear devastation."

Brown was removed Friday from overseeing disaster response and replaced with a Coast Guard admiral.

Both Barbour and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco, a Democrat, also seemed not to understand the size of the storm headed their way when they issued their first National Guard call-ups — Barbour, on Friday night, and Blanco, on Saturday morning.

Barbour summoned only about 1,000 troops initially, according to Mississippi National Guard spokesman Lt. Col. Tim Powell, and placed another 600 on standby. That number was consistent with what the state had needed 36 years earlier after Camille, but it was inadequate given the gambling-fueled boom that had brought tens of thousands of new residents to the coast.

Blanco's contingent was larger, 4,000, but it was dwarfed by the more than 30,000 that eventually would be summoned to help.

Both Louisiana and Mississippi successfully employed so-called contra-flow plans that turned super highways one-way out of the coastal area, to speed evacuation. New Orleans officials were pleased that 80 percent of the city's population had reached safety before the storm hit. But neither state had made any provision for getting people without cars out of the danger zone.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, after receiving the direst of warnings in a dinner-time phone call at home from National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield a day-and-a-half before landfall, delayed issuing a mandatory evacuation order for 15 hours. He finally told residents that the storm surge "most likely will topple our levee system" at 10 o'clock Sunday morning, when Katrina was on his city's doorstep.

Nagin wasn't alone in his hesitancy, however. In Harrison County, Miss., where Biloxi is located, Civil Defense Director Joe Spraggins, in his job less than a month, also declined to order an evacuation on Saturday, saying he wanted to wait to see what the storm did. A mandatory evacuation order came Sunday. The state's emergency management director, Bob Latham, worried that residents wouldn't evacuate because of false alarms in the past.

Perhaps the most startling failure came in the reaction — or the apparent lack of one — from federal, state and local officials to the discovery that New Orleans' fragile levee system had collapsed hours before Katrina even made landfall. Engineers and emergency planners had warned for years that such a collapse would be catastrophic for the below-sea-level city and the people who lived there.

Yet reports of the breach failed to spark action. The commander of the New Orleans district of the Army Corps of Engineers, Col. Richard P. Wagenaar, finally confirmed that a breach had occurred between 3 and 6 p.m. Monday and reported it to headquarters in Vicksburg, Miss.

The mayor had told reporters during a 1 p.m. news conference that there was an unconfirmed report of a levee break, but he quickly turned to other topics. Shortly before nightfall, a FEMA official, back from a helicopter survey of the city, reported the breach to his colleagues in Baton Rouge, then broke the news to the mayor.

Still no concerted effort was made to reach the thousands of people whose houses were rapidly filling with water. As many crawled from their flooded bedrooms into attics, and some hacked their way onto their roofs, much of the world went to sleep thinking that New Orleans had survived the worst.

Not until Tuesday dawned, and morning news show anchors expressed surprise that the once-dry streets around them were filling with water, did the magnitude of the disaster become evident.

There were many other instances of bungling. Federal officials, accustomed to serving a supportive but not commanding role in a disaster, waited for specific requests from state and local officials. Local officials, overwhelmed, trapped by the devastation around them, and unable to survey the damage, couldn't gather the information they needed to make specific requests. Radio communication was impossible and phone service as bad.

 

[michaeledward]

Riddle me this:

According the Editor and Publisher, the President "could not identify any specific shortcomings" in the relief efforts related to Hurricane Katrina. - http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001096870

The President said today, "To the extent the federal government didn't do its job right, I take responsibility." - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9324891/
​

Anybody see a problem with these two premises?

What exactly is the President taking responsibility for?

It seems the President is doing an end run around that last question. Someone needs to fall on their sword for this disaster, but they have to acknowledge what, exactly, the disaster is first, I think.

Denying any knowledge of the FEMA Chiefs resignation, as President Bush did Monday, does not exactly instill the confidence that he understands what is going on in his Administration, much less the relief effort.

 

[modarnis]

Riddle me this:

According the Editor and Publisher, the President "could not identify any specific shortcomings" in the relief efforts related to Hurricane Katrina. - http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001096870

The President said today, "To the extent the federal government didn't do its job right, I take responsibility." - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9324891/
​

Anybody see a problem with these two premises?

What exactly is the President taking responsibility for?

It seems the President is doing an end run around that last question. Someone needs to fall on their sword for this disaster, but they have to acknowledge what, exactly, the disaster is first, I think.

Denying any knowledge of the FEMA Chiefs resignation, as President Bush did Monday, does not exactly instill the confidence that he understands what is going on in his Administration, much less the relief effort.

I suppose it would be necessary to know what question may have been posed to trigger each response, prior to deciding whether or not the premises are inconsistent

 

[BlueDragon1981]

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
--Abraham Lincoln
​

Nice quote.​

​

How about we blame nature and the lack of organization. Factor in human nature and we are all doomed...lol​

 

[michaeledward]

This is an interesting photo ....

 

[sgtmac_46]

Hey, You're slowing down ... it has taken you 10 days to blame this disaster on Clinton.

By the way, it was not - Levee Funding ...

And don't confuse money that Congress put into the budget with what Bush spent. In all of Bush's budgets ... The President had offered about 10% of what Louisiana requested for funds ... Congress then went ahead and provided Louisiana with about 25% of What Louisiana requested.

So, less than half of what was actually spent, can Bushco take credit for.

And who was it that opened up the coastal marshes for development?

Could be the fact that congress funds projects. Lets all try to read our Constitution before talking about what "Bushco" didn't pay for.

As for the previous still photo, other than appease your own base sense of humor, what exactly is a still photo of the president supposed to add to the dialogue.

This is part of the problem. What kind of dialogue can even be had on any topic when one party of the conversation finds still photos of people they hate amusing and the height of argument.

As for the still photo, what exactly is that supposed to add to the dialogue.

 

[michaeledward]

This just in ...

http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2005/09/20/some_truckers_frosted_by_shipments_of_ice_to_northeast/

Some truckers frosted by shipments of ice to Northeast

By Clarke Canfield, Associated Press Writer | September 20, 2005

PORTLAND, Maine --Trucks loaded with millions of pounds of bagged ice destined for the hurricane-ravaged Gulf Coast have been diverted hundreds of miles to cold storage facilities in New England and elsewhere around the country.



The Federal Emergency Management Agency ordered the ice delivered to staging areas in the South to help in hurricane relief efforts. But the agency ended up with more ice than it could use, forcing it to direct the trucks to freezers nationwide.

Some truckers who were waiting to unload their rigs at an AmeriCold Logistics warehouse in Portland on Tuesday said diverting the ice some 1,300 miles from Alabama to Maine seems like a waste of money.

I guess staging this Ice in Portland Maine will provide just in time delivery for Hurricane Rita, when it hits Texas, eh?

 

[Sapper6]

perhaps they have enough ice already. or perhaps you are looking for any possible reason to blame someone. of course, that is the topic of thread so have at it...

 

[michaeledward]

Sapper6 ...
Try this, OK ...
Get a MAP ...

Look for Texas ... and Look for Maine.

The drivers get paid $2.50 a mile while driving, and $800 to $1,000 a day while waiting at a location, said Gosnell. He questioned whether FEMA could've found a location closer to Alabama.
"I'm sure they could've found some place to store it down there," he said.

Jeff Campbell, a truck driver from Rockingham, N.C., said he figured it is costing more than $5,000 per truck -- or more than $1 million overall -- to send the ice-loaded trucks to Maine.

That's a pretty ****ing expensive Ice cube.

It's time like these that make me glad the Democratic Party has absolutely no power in Washington D.C.

But, boy, do I wish some of those Republicans running the country could remember anything about fiscal conservatism.