The best way to train MA

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
The best way to train MA is

- You learn technique A. When you apply technique A, your opponent counters with technique X.
- You then learn technique B to counter technique X. When you apply technique B, your opponent counters with technique Y.
- You then learn technique C to counter technique Y. When you apply technique C, your opponent counters with technique Z.
- ...

So, your learning sequence should be A -> X -> B -> Y -> C -> Z -> ...

Here is an example.

- You apply downward force wrist lock (A). Your opponent bends his elbow to counter you (X).
- You change downward force to horizontal force (B). Your opponent turns his body to counter you (Y).
- You change your horizontal force into a pulling force (C), ...

Have you learned MA this way? Your thought?

 
You learn technique A.
What does it mean to "learn technique A?"

1. I know the starting position and the ending position
2. I can get from the start position to the end position quickly
3. I understand how to generate power with technique A
4. I understand some of the principles and ideas taught within technique A
5. I can execute technique A in sparring
6. I can adapt technique A to use in many situations

One of the things I find, is that when students start countering too soon, everyone focuses on technique X instead of technique A. This means, A is done poorly.... which means that X seems to be learned much better.... However, then they go up against someone who focused on technique A, and does it correctly.... this being the first time the student has tried X on a proper A.... means that A works and X fails.

The trick is to focus on A, enough so that the student can use A and rely on A to work.... and then you can learn X, being careful not to sacrifice A. The main trick here is for each student to focus on their own technique, doing it correctly.... without focusing on "winning." "Winning" makes technique worse and sloppy. "Training" is for improving technique. You need a balance. For each student, that balance will be different.

You also have to consider what "winning" means.....

Different people have different definitions of "learning" and "winning" which means they will have different ways to achieve their different goals. This also means that there will be different "best ways,"...... maybe even one "best way" for each individual.....
 
I don't like the question itself. If you start with "What is the best way to train martial arts", you create a binary choice between "best" and "not the best". Because "not the best" includes the worst, the implication is that anything that doesn't fit into your definition of "the best" might as well be the worst.

I don't think there is one best way of training. Even if there is, I think that focusing on that training as "the best" is as problematic as doing something that isn't the best.

For example, I could look at Taekwondo vs. Muay Thai and look at which one is "the best". I may conclude that the footwork and advanced kicks in Taekwondo are better than those in Muay Thai, and so Taekwondo is "the best". If I do that, I'm going to ignore all that Muay Thai has to offer. Instead, I can look at Taekwondo and see the advantages of the footwork and advanced kicks, and I can look at Muay Thai and see the advantages of the short-range skills.

Same thing applies for ways of training. Someone who only does one type of training is going to miss out on what others have to offer. In Jiu-Jitsu, we have the "drill" folks and the "ecological" folks. Drillers focus on learning techniques step-by-step and building muscle memory. Ecological training is done through games that create specific situations and specific win conditions for each person. Just eco training and you'll have to basically figure out the techniques for yourself, but just drilling and you may miss concepts that tie things together. At my gym, we do some drilling and some eco, which gives us a much better experience than if we just did one or the other.

So no, I don't think that what you say is "the best". I don't think there is. I think it's wrong to chase it.
 
One of the things I find, is that when students start countering too soon, everyone focuses on technique X instead of technique A. This means, A is done poorly.... which means that X seems to be learned much better.... However, then they go up against someone who focused on technique A, and does it correctly.... this being the first time the student has tried X on a proper A.... means that A works and X fails.

The trick is to focus on A, enough so that the student can use A and rely on A to work.... and then you can learn X, being careful not to sacrifice A. The main trick here is for each student to focus on their own technique, doing it correctly.... without focusing on "winning." "Winning" makes technique worse and sloppy. "Training" is for improving technique. You need a balance. For each student, that balance will be different.
One way I like to approach this is with adjustable difficulty ecological games.

Here's an example.

Suppose I'm teaching a simple single leg takedown. There are a ton of details and variations and what-ifs that I could throw at my students when I demonstrate the technique.

Problem: there's a definite limit to how much of that detail students will be able to absorb at once.
Problem: takedowns and throws are probably the most technically demanding aspect of martial arts, so they will need a lot of those details to pull off the move against anyone who's any good in sparring.
Problem: If I have them just drill the technique for weeks before using it in sparring, they won't have the feel for how everything works in context, they'll flub various details they've learned, and they'll lose confidence in trying the move.
Problem: If I throw them into trying the takedown in sparring when they've only had a barebones introduction, then they won't have learned essential details, they'll have low success, and they'll lose confidence in trying the move.
Problem: In either of the two scenarios above, if they do have success executing the technique against a sparring partner who doesn't know how to defend properly, they'll likely start burning in bad habits that will hurt them later against more skilled opponents.

One possible solution:

Step one is to demonstrate a basic entry and finish, giving them just enough detail so they can drill the technique with a cooperative partner without tripping over their own feet.

Step two is the ecological games.

I like to start one student out having already picked up their partner's leg. This allows them to ignore (for now) the difficult tasks of setting up and entering to get the leg. Now they start live. The attacking partner's job is to finish the takedown using the leg that they are controlling. The defending partner's job is to avoid the takedown and get their leg free. This setup should give a clear advantage to the attacker, but beginners may not be able to fully realize that advantage.

I'll watch for a few rounds and see who is winning more - the attackers or the defenders. If the attackers are winning more, then I'll offer tips to the defenders on how to counter. If the defenders are escaping more, I'll offer tips and corrections to the attackers. This way each job gets progressively harder as both the attacker and defender get better at their role.

This also has the advantage that I don't have to throw every detail and nuance at the students from the get go. I can watch and see which are the most common problems which come up when trying to execute the move under pressure and fix those first.

Once students have done this game enough times, it should settle into an equilibrium where the attacker will consistently win more often, since they start with an advantage. At this point they will have the confidence that they can have success if they can just secure the leg, so I can switch to other games aimed at progressively improving their ability to do the necessary setup and entry to get hold of the leg. (While also progressively improving the ability of their partners to avoid having their legs grabbed.)
 
What does it mean to "learn technique A?"

1. I know the starting position and the ending position
2. I can get from the start position to the end position quickly
3. I understand how to generate power with technique A
4. I understand some of the principles and ideas taught within technique A
5. I can execute technique A in sparring
6. I can adapt technique A to use in many situations
Learning a technique is to develop a technique that you know how to deal with your opponent's counters. Technique A is your general. Technique B, C, ... are your soldiers that support your general.

One of the things I find, is that when students start countering too soon, everyone focuses on technique X instead of technique A. This means, A is done poorly.... which means that X seems to be learned much better.... However, then they go up against someone who focused on technique A, and does it correctly.... this being the first time the student has tried X on a proper A.... means that A works and X fails.
I agree that to learn counters too early may not be good. I may just talk about long term training goal. Some CMA schools don't teach any counters until several years later.
 
One way I like to approach this is with adjustable difficulty ecological games.

Here's an example.

Suppose I'm teaching a simple single leg takedown. There are a ton of details and variations and what-ifs that I could throw at my students when I demonstrate the technique.

Problem: there's a definite limit to how much of that detail students will be able to absorb at once.
Problem: takedowns and throws are probably the most technically demanding aspect of martial arts, so they will need a lot of those details to pull off the move against anyone who's any good in sparring.
Problem: If I have them just drill the technique for weeks before using it in sparring, they won't have the feel for how everything works in context, they'll flub various details they've learned, and they'll lose confidence in trying the move.
Problem: If I throw them into trying the takedown in sparring when they've only had a barebones introduction, then they won't have learned essential details, they'll have low success, and they'll lose confidence in trying the move.
Problem: In either of the two scenarios above, if they do have success executing the technique against a sparring partner who doesn't know how to defend properly, they'll likely start burning in bad habits that will hurt them later against more skilled opponents.

One possible solution:

Step one is to demonstrate a basic entry and finish, giving them just enough detail so they can drill the technique with a cooperative partner without tripping over their own feet.

Step two is the ecological games.

I like to start one student out having already picked up their partner's leg. This allows them to ignore (for now) the difficult tasks of setting up and entering to get the leg. Now they start live. The attacking partner's job is to finish the takedown using the leg that they are controlling. The defending partner's job is to avoid the takedown and get their leg free. This setup should give a clear advantage to the attacker, but beginners may not be able to fully realize that advantage.

I'll watch for a few rounds and see who is winning more - the attackers or the defenders. If the attackers are winning more, then I'll offer tips to the defenders on how to counter. If the defenders are escaping more, I'll offer tips and corrections to the attackers. This way each job gets progressively harder as both the attacker and defender get better at their role.

This also has the advantage that I don't have to throw every detail and nuance at the students from the get go. I can watch and see which are the most common problems which come up when trying to execute the move under pressure and fix those first.

Once students have done this game enough times, it should settle into an equilibrium where the attacker will consistently win more often, since they start with an advantage. At this point they will have the confidence that they can have success if they can just secure the leg, so I can switch to other games aimed at progressively improving their ability to do the necessary setup and entry to get hold of the leg. (While also progressively improving the ability of their partners to avoid having their legs grabbed.)
To execute SC single leg (knee seize), we use one hand to control the arm, use another hand to pick up the leg. In the 1st 6 months, I just ask my students to use knee seize to attack, attack, and still attack. 6 months later, I wanted them to use it to set up different techniques. When they use "knee seize" (technique A) and their opponents steps back, they would use "leg spring" (technique B) to attack the other leg.

So, the counter X for technique A is just to pull back the leading leg (no need special training for it). Technique B (leg spring) will be learned at least 6 months later.
 
I don't like the question itself. If you start with "What is the best way to train martial arts", you create a binary choice between "best" and "not the best". Because "not the best" includes the worst, the implication is that anything that doesn't fit into your definition of "the best" might as well be the worst.
Maybe I should change the title into "depth first approach MA development" instead.

In AI, there are only

- depth first search, and
- breadth first search.

Both search methods will search through the entire tree.
 
All good points above. One thing to add- the counters show the weaknesses in whatever technique you're working with. Which not only helps you learn to deal with the counters to it, but helps you learn to avoid someone taking advantage of the inherent weaknesses in the technique you're working on, counters aside.
 
All good points above. One thing to add- the counters show the weaknesses in whatever technique you're working with. Which not only helps you learn to deal with the counters to it, but helps you learn to avoid someone taking advantage of the inherent weaknesses in the technique you're working on, counters aside.
Agree with you 100% there. If you (general YOU) have not been foot sweep before, you may not know the danger of a wide stance can be.
 
I'd say when you set your mind to seriously learning a technique, at some point you almost have to learn as many counters as possible for it just so you can root out the weaknesses in your own technique. Learning counters isn't all about being able to counter someone else's technique.
 
I'd say when you set your mind to seriously learning a technique, at some point you almost have to learn as many counters as possible for it just so you can root out the weaknesses in your own technique. Learning counters isn't all about being able to counter someone else's technique.
You don't have to learn the counters. Your training partners do.
 

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