The benefits of co-ed grappling

[Feisty Mouse]

Men and women both come to the training studio with different kinds of "baggage" and life experiences.

It is not conducive to good training - nor is it good manners, or respectful - for people to openly fondle training partners, rather than grapple (during the course of which lots of contact will happen, of course).

Especially when people are beginning their training, they are not given "streets" or "real-life" scenarios. And someone randomly grabbing for a breast is not "role-playing" - it's taking advantage of the trust that training partners implicitly give to one another in the training situation.

If a studio was run with that attitude, they would certainly drive away any women that came there to train. Women deal with enough patronizing, staring-at-boobs, and whatnot throughout the day anyways.

If an experienced female MAer was in this situation where it was clear someone was trying to cop a feel, rather than training, I would hope she would say, quite loudly and clearly, "I hope you weren't trying to grab my breast," and then, ideally, pin the sucker.

 

[shesulsa]

I like that last part, Feisty! Fake shock, they'll peel off, then pin 'em!!!

There are several good points here and not all from one point of view.

At the risk of ticking off some dear female friends on this board, a realistic attack would involve uncomfortable contact. If any female can be okay with approaching this level of training in a trusted environment, I think she should go for it.

THAT SAID: It is up to the instructor to have discussion with all students prior to coed grappling training regarding appropriate contact, what will and will not be tolerated, the fact that some direct and indirect contact may indeed happen inadvertently, and repeat offenses will not be tolerated.

The limits need to be firmly set in the very beginning before any contact is made with anybody - even before same-gendered matches. Every student must be clear and the rules must be strictly enforced and closely watched.

If a male student is having such a hard time finding a hold and others see it, the match should be stopped immediately and instruction given - this is assuming, of course, that he truly had no ill intentions. If he's not a bumbling beginner and this was intentional, he should be booted immediately.

:asian:

 

[FUZZYJ692000]

On a serious note with that, it's proabably a good thing he exposed her to that. As a female, in the real world, a skilled opponent getting physically sleazy is something you certainly might encounter in your travels, and I have several times mysaelf in past several months myself. Even though for her it was in safe and controlled environment, if she takes stock and reflects on that, she'll likely get alot out of it. Better the devil you know right?

BL

i'd have got also disagree on this. i'm sorry but there is a guy in our class that i refuse to grapple with because i know he's getting his jollies grappling with the females. and for an instructor to do this i'm sorry it's totally unacceptable behavior. now if it is an accident that oops i didn't mean to grab your chest or what not that is one thing but to do it because you want to "enjoy" yourself i'm sorry i don't care who you are it's unacceptible and inappropriate. especially if you're the teacher or instructor. basically in other words what i got is that it's okay because it is in a "safe" environment. that would be like saying it's okay for teachers at schools to touch students in the same manner because it's okay it's in a "controled" environment. to me that's just the instructor on a power trip and abusing his rights as an instructor and should be ashamed of his or her behavior. there is a difference between preparing for reality and being fondled or felt up on i'm sorry. i love grappling with the guys in my studio and like i said i'll grapple all of them but one, and no he can't pin me but he makes me feel uncomfortable because of his own behaviors. i've said many of times before i'd rather grapple the guys than the girls cause i am gonna get a better training session with someone who out weighs me and can over power me. but lord knows that they would never dream of using this time as a time to take care of their hormones. and for this i'm happy that i do have the RESPECTFUL guys that we do have in our studio :asian:

 

[MJS]

Of course it should be safe, but fact is that it wasn't. Inappropriate is inappropriate and uninvited physically sexual contact is exactly that. And meet it in the kwoon, at work or what have you, it is what it is. Thankfully the environment here was somewhat protected and while we're learning techniques for defence, well there's something to apply them to if anything is worthy of these types of skills. If she was caught off guard, and didn't have enough skill to fend it off, that's just something to learn to protect against in future. Being caught off guard is a bugger! Things happen and as much I don't condone his actions, (and I'm sorry kids) , but you can sit around crying about it, or you can be proactive in your safety and make sure next time you encounter it, you know how to best handle it. I have had alot of experience like this, and teach my daughter for this exact reason. It is part of our world and I am often off travelling by myself, but if I hadn't considered it earlier ( afdter meeting on it a lesser scale earlier) , as soon as awareness of need presented itself, who knows how the more serious situations later would have turned out?? It's something women should consider and as a mommy, a sister , and a woman and so forth, I stand by that comment emphatically. Don't get sad, get prepared for next time ( and then hope nxt time doesn't come).

Blooming Lotus

I'm afraid the point is still being missed here. This was a grappling class, not a rape prevention class. The conduct of the male student was not suited for that time. It was a benefit to him, for a cheap thrill, not a benefit to her.

There are times and places for everything, and this certainly was not the time. Of course there is going to be contact in grappling, but again, this was not common contact.

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

I'm afraid the point is still being missed here. This was a grappling class, not a rape prevention class. The conduct of the male student was not suited for that time. It was a benefit to him, for a cheap thrill, not a benefit to her.

Good point! Not all women some to martial arts for self-defense and if the class itself is not concentrated upon that ideal, this is sport and you are correct.

 

[Lisa]

Okay, back on track...

Some great things I have learned co-ed grappling with the guys in my class. We have on HUGE guy, he has been missing for the past couple of weeks which is really too bad cause he is a lot of fun to roll with. When I say huge, I mean huge! 6'4, 260 pounds, almost as big as err... Bignick! whom I think I read somewhere is taller. (my apologies nick if I am wrong)

Anyways....

Changing levels and shooting for this man's leg to do a take down is like your shoulder hitting a brick wall. Try to put him in a triangle choke when your short little legs can't wrap around his neck and shoulder area is a definite challeng and then all he does is stand up and I am dangling there like one of the kids. He is the only one in the class that picks me up and makes me feel like a rag doll. I love rolling with him. He is challenging, not only because of size and strength but because of skill as well. He has a great sense of humor and wonderful disposition. He is careful not to squish cause he wants to learn too and realises he can use all the strength he wants and probably would win, but what would the fun in that be? He would rather roll with all of us, learn and enjoy. Okay... maybe he gets a kick out of hanging me from around his neck once in a while when I attempt a triangle choke, but hey, its all in good fun and he is fun to spar.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

i'd have got also disagree on this. i'm sorry but there is a guy in our class that i refuse to grapple with because i know he's getting his jollies grappling with the females. and for an instructor to do this i'm sorry it's totally unacceptable behavior. now if it is an accident that oops i didn't mean to grab your chest or what not that is one thing but to do it because you want to "enjoy" yourself i'm sorry i don't care who you are it's unacceptible and inappropriate. especially if you're the teacher or instructor. basically in other words what i got is that it's okay because it is in a "safe" environment. that would be like saying it's okay for teachers at schools to touch students in the same manner because it's okay it's in a "controled" environment. to me that's just the instructor on a power trip and abusing his rights as an instructor and should be ashamed of his or her behavior. there is a difference between preparing for reality and being fondled or felt up on i'm sorry. i love grappling with the guys in my studio and like i said i'll grapple all of them but one, and no he can't pin me but he makes me feel uncomfortable because of his own behaviors. i've said many of times before i'd rather grapple the guys than the girls cause i am gonna get a better training session with someone who out weighs me and can over power me. but lord knows that they would never dream of using this time as a time to take care of their hormones. and for this i'm happy that i do have the RESPECTFUL guys that we do have in our studio :asian:

I don't really care, but you're misunderstanding me here. To defend sexual attacks is often in a different capacity to defending violence and often calls for different techs and apps to be considered. To be aware that you have the need to defend differently, and the having the knowledge and awareness to consider how to deal with that is ( considering no real harm was done here and hopefully shifu will deal it or you have a choice to leave and remove yourself from the situation altogether ) a great growth experience as an maer. I'm glad for mine anyway. These sorts of violations can hit us in the most unlikely venues. Best prepared than crying foul. ( btw : I have seen some situations of this nature that would make your skin crawl........take the tip or don't.........it's a potentially violent world and I for one like to know what I'm facing and how I'm dealing with it. Cotton wool serves only for softness, but it doesn't stop the injury now does it). Btw : shifus not always going to be there to save you, so what then???? Learn the defence or cop the fact you cant defend it .

Blooming Lotus

 

[MJS]

First off, lets try to keep the discussion friendly please.

As for the topic...while it is good to be prepared, we still need to keep in mind that this was not a rape prevention class or an actual assault, but in fact a grappling class! I, as well as many of my training partners have rolled with females and we've been able to keep our hands in the proper places, so as to not offend any of them. This guy obviously can't!

Now, maybe this girl should have grabbed onto the other guys fingers, and broke them, but she didnt because again, this was a grappling class. Should she have poked him in the eyes? Again, both are acceptable for a rape situation, but not the grappling class.

As for the inst....its his/her responsibility to keep a safe environment. The student should not have to leave the school, because some jerk can't keep his hands to himself. Sexual harrassment is illegal..PERIOD!! If its a matter of a law suit or getting rid of a problem student, I'd get rid of the problem student.

We're forgetting what the objective of the class is here.

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

Blooming Lotus, your examples and argument do, in my opinion, lean towards a self-defense course of training - and there's nothing wrong with that. You talk hard-core and if that's how you walk, too, righteous!

However, it appears the incident in question does lean more towards inappropriate contact in a sport setting.

I am aware of certain women for whom getting on the mat at all, let alone with a guy is a monumental task and it takes phenomenal instructors and understanding classmates to make that a successful venture for such a person. This would be an excellent example of a situation where this repeated contact was not appropriate.

I was hoping someone with this background (kinda like me, but other than me) would post this, but in support of those who don't care to argue this private point, there it is.

Regards,

Georgia

 

[MA-Caver]

Having read the thread a bit more carefully, all I can say is this. Blooming is confusing self-defense arts with martial arts. The two while having their similarities are radically different in concept and purpose.
Martial arts is the discovery of the self as well as defense and attack.
Self-defense is just that. The learning of techniques that are designed to ward off an attack to aid in the escape.
Grappling is an art form in unto itself and should not be confused with the art of "Self-defense" taught to women (and men) in order to avoid an assault, sexual or otherwise.
When in a formal grappling class-room be it Judo, JJ, BJJ, MMA or whatever both parties are there to learn the techniques related to grappling. A man who partners with a woman should keep his mind focus on the techniques and not on the contact itself. Any man groping a woman (without her consent) is wrong and has no excuse what-so-ever. A woman has the right to her body at all times and allows contact on her terms. Accidental contacts must be acknowledged and control (on the man's part...even the woman) must be enacted at all times during practice/training.
A woman should not submit to this kind of inappropriate contact at anytime from either sex just for the sake that it may happen in real life and thus needs to use that contact as a means to learn. It is demeaning and debased to the woman who is being groped while trying to learn/practice/train in a legitimate Martial Art, (she shouldn't be groped in a self-defense class either by the way) and the guy is wanting to get a handful of breast, buttock or whatever. The man isn't wanting to learn a Martial art, the woman is. The result is counter-productive because the woman now has to focus on self-defense.
Blooming, in my opinion, is reacting to past experiences of previous assaults on her person and her comments/posts are reflecting internalizations of these assaults. Initally she responded well, but previous assault victims tend to have bits of flashbacks and repression of delayed emotional reactions and they have manifested in her most recent posts. This, should not be held wholly accountable to her. To me she's just venting subconciously.
The thread has moved itself away from it's primary focus and question. We need to stay with the topic at hand.
My two bits.

 

[FUZZYJ692000]

Having read the thread a bit more carefully, all I can say is this. Blooming is confusing self-defense arts with martial arts. The two while having their similarities are radically different in concept and purpose.
Martial arts is the discovery of the self as well as defense and attack.
Self-defense is just that. The learning of techniques that are designed to ward off an attack to aid in the escape.
Grappling is an art form in unto itself and should not be confused with the art of "Self-defense" taught to women (and men) in order to avoid an assault, sexual or otherwise.
When in a formal grappling class-room be it Judo, JJ, BJJ, MMA or whatever both parties are there to learn the techniques related to grappling. A man who partners with a woman should keep his mind focus on the techniques and not on the contact itself. Any man groping a woman (without her consent) is wrong and has no excuse what-so-ever. A woman has the right to her body at all times and allows contact on her terms. Accidental contacts must be acknowledged and control (on the man's part...even the woman) must be enacted at all times during practice/training.
A woman should not submit to this kind of inappropriate contact at anytime from either sex just for the sake that it may happen in real life and thus needs to use that contact as a means to learn. It is demeaning and debased to the woman who is being groped while trying to learn/practice/train in a legitimate Martial Art, (she shouldn't be groped in a self-defense class either by the way) and the guy is wanting to get a handful of breast, buttock or whatever. The man isn't wanting to learn a Martial art, the woman is. The result is counter-productive because the woman now has to focus on self-defense.

Well said and on that note...back to the topic. I think that you'd probably have to have co-ed grappling for the mere fact that many martial arts are male dominate. a friend and i were talking and when she was still into competing there weren't any females in her division for her to grapple so she had to grapple the guys. Like i said i'd rather grapple the guys any day, except with the exception of tess and her daughter is now wanting to come in for a grappling match...mind she she'd be like grappling a guy for me...she's close to 6 ft and she loves to lift weights...i'm scared but it is more practice for a woman to grapple with guys because she can actually see how much they can over power her.

 

[still learning]

Hello, My son now 15 years old just stared his first year in High School wrestling, at practice in school all the girls co-ed wrestle for practice,about 30 kids , 8 girls, you can see some of the boys feel alittle uncomfortable untill the they going, then it just practice drills. Everyone learns. Is this right or wrong for high school kids? I am not to sure how I feel about it?

We do grappling at Kempo practice and sometimes need women partners and it does feel a little uncomfortable sometimes. Not use to it yet.

The womem problerly gets the most benifits.....Aloha

 

[arnisandyz]

There has to be a certain amount of trust between participants. trust on the females part that male classmate will play nice and also trust on the males part that the female won't cry wolf should a inadvertant grab or touch happen. When I used to teach i would have husband-wife or father-daughter, or brother-sister work together when possible. I would also be careful when working with a female student that other students were involved watching the techniques and rotating out.

 

[James Kovacich]

When I used to teach i would have husband-wife or father-daughter, or brother-sister work together when possible. I would also be careful when working with a female student that other students were involved watching the techniques and rotating out.

Smart on your part!

 

[arnisandyz]

Smart on your part!

Thanks, the majority of replies to this thread have to do with the female being vunerable to unappropriate behavior, but I just wanted to remind everyone that in todays world of lawsuits and people playing the system, you may find yourself trying to defend something you didn't even do. Having those extra set of eyes goes a long way. I have also had people videotape (with all parties consent) so we could review technique, but that could also be used in court, or even better, deter unappropiate behavior from even happening.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Hello, My son now 15 years old just stared his first year in High School wrestling, at practice in school all the girls co-ed wrestle for practice,about 30 kids , 8 girls, you can see some of the boys feel alittle uncomfortable untill the they going, then it just practice drills. Everyone learns. Is this right or wrong for high school kids? I am not to sure how I feel about it?

We do grappling at Kempo practice and sometimes need women partners and it does feel a little uncomfortable sometimes. Not use to it yet.

The womem problerly gets the most benifits.....Aloha

I think it's always uncomfortable at first for both men and women (and boys and girls)... I think it took me several classes, in an environment I already felt very comfortable in, to relax about the high contact levels.

I think it's fine for HS students - as long as the instructor(s) handles the class and sets a mature, "we're here to train" tone. (In the past I've met MA folks and gym teachers who get pretty juvenile about contact, which is not a big deal in an experienced class, but would wreak havoc on a high school grappling class.)

 

[shesulsa]

One might also consider having two sets of eyes watching carefully - one male, one female when a mixed pair are on.

 

[Lisa]

Setting the tone for training is one of the most important things for successful co-ed grappling. Highschool students could get a bit immature about the whole thing but if the instructor has the right attitude about it, hopefully it will diminish or abolish any problems. It is all about how you approach things.

 

[James Kovacich]

Thanks, the majority of replies to this thread have to do with the female being vunerable to unappropriate behavior, but I just wanted to remind everyone that in todays world of lawsuits and people playing the system, you may find yourself trying to defend something you didn't even do. Having those extra set of eyes goes a long way. I have also had people videotape (with all parties consent) so we could review technique, but that could also be used in court, or even better, deter unappropiate behavior from even happening.

That is part of the reason I left a particular BJJ instructor. If there was an odd number of students in attendance a grown man may end up training (not rotating) with a kid and their parents are right there.

The approriate thing would of been for "the instructor" to have one of the adult

We pay to much money to spend your mat time with a 10 year old. Thats my opinion but at todays rates I think it is justified. Now if it was a rare occsion it would not of been so bad.

Back to your original post. My wife and duaghter are always close by.

 

[Lisa]

That is part of the reason I left a particular BJJ instructor. If there was an odd number of students in attendance a grown man may end up training (not rotating) with a kid and their parents are right there.

The approriate thing would of been for "the instructor" to have one of the adult groups rotate between 3 adult students and the kids could rotate 3 also. We pay to much money to spend you mat time with a 10 year old. Thats my opinion but at todays rates I think it is justified.

Back to your original post. My wife and duaghter are always close by.

Setting an age limit between the classes is also a good idea. Where I train they have to be at least 13 to join the adult class, they don't necessarily have to at 13 but the option is there and it is up to them to make that shift. When my daughter turned 13 she wanted to join the adult class immediately. She had outgrown the children's class and needed more challenge. She never felt uncomfortable, however this was probably due to the fact that she already knew all the adults in the school. It would probably be different for a new student who does not know the adults in the class. In those cases, slow integration into co-ed grappling may be necessary depending on the child, beit a boy or a girl.