The Baddest Art on Earth

[Deleted member 39746]

If done right, no can defend!

Now we just need gun kata. We have grenade kata.

Actually you can have all the training in the world but if you don't have the mental capacity to be able to act immediately then it's all just a waste of time.

To be fair, the training should include that. That does seem like a vital skill that at least needs some encouragement to appear in some people. I heard a good thing about situational awareness on a paul harrel video where he basically said, if you consciously make yourself do it enough, you will do it without thinking about it eventually.

 

[Buka]

1. "I'm looking for the best martial arts where self-defense and survival in "any" situation is concerned, " Best choice - "Run Fu" sometimes referred to as Nike Jitsu.
2. "Preferable can be efficiently lethal and non-lethal at discretion and with many practical day to day uses" Spending time and energy on most any "art" would be a waste. There is no "Art" component in what you seek. There are systems such as PPCT geared to LEOs that would likely contain what you seek.

My old department used to send me away every year to get certified in one thing or another. It was a blast, company car, expense account, nice lodgings, a week of training in one “latest thing” or another. PPCT was one of them, went to their course a few years. It was a program somebody came up with to sell to Law Enforcement. It was okay if you hadn’t had any kind of training before. And the guys who ran it were nice enough. But if you were into serious Martial Arts you thought “I should get in on this racket”.

If any of you guys with experience went there you would be thinking that, too. But it was a nice break from work.

 

[Buka]

Now we just need gun kata.

Gun Kata? Here you go, Rat....from the movie Equilibrium.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Gun Kata? Here you go, Rat....from the movie Equilibrium.

I meant in real life you fool.

 

[Earl Weiss]

......... PPCT was one of them, went to their course a few years. It was a program somebody came up with to sell to Law Enforcement. It was okay if you hadn’t had any kind of training before. And the guys who ran it were nice enough. But if you were into serious Martial Arts you thought “I should get in on this racket”.

.

I felt it was designed to serve a purpose, and that it served that purpose As we know MA is for a lifetime, not lunchtime. I felt it would be of value for LEOs who had little training and would likely have little additional training. I hosted the basic Edged weapons, and pressure point and control courses. I also like the structure of having a basic level, A course to train people to be instructors, and a curse to train people to train instructors. I don't know what that involved but felt such a structure could be adapted to MA.

 

[Bruce7]

Sup. I'm looking for the best martial arts where self-defense and survival in "any" situation is concerned, preferable can be efficiently lethal and non-lethal at discretion and with many practical day to day uses (For example, with wrestling your form and finesse when grabbing and holding doors and stuff changes.)

I read elsewhere that apart from knife fighting and guns that Krav Maga, Spetznaz Systema, BJJ, Pankration, Muay Thai, Wing Chun and Sambo are the best and most practical for this. What are your thoughts?
I currently do Wrestling and like MMA.

IMO you are looking for the wrong thing to help you in your crest.
The art does not make you great at self-defense and survival in "any" situation.
Finding the best teacher is most the important, not the art.
Even if you find the best teacher. Only throw long and hard practice will you achieve what you desire.

 

[Steve]

I really don’t know what the baddest art in the world is, but surely Blades of Fury is up there.

 

[drop bear]

I felt it was designed to serve a purpose, and that it served that purpose As we know MA is for a lifetime, not lunchtime. I felt it would be of value for LEOs who had little training and would likely have little additional training. I hosted the basic Edged weapons, and pressure point and control courses. I also like the structure of having a basic level, A course to train people to be instructors, and a curse to train people to train instructors. I don't know what that involved but felt such a structure could be adapted to MA.

Industry training basically comes from the wrong place and is intended to teach the wrong thing.

The advantage is it mostly doesn't matter.


So with PPCT you are taught by a guy who's fight record is qualifications in PPCT and whose purpose is to protect a companies liability.

It doesn't have to work for it to work. And the people who engage in the training are forced to do it and then shut up about it. Because their job relies on it.

And I have never seen a PPCT instructor held accountable for when their training course gets someone hurt.

To me as someone who has had to endure it. I find it a blatantly morally corrupt process.

If I put a guy in a MMA fight with the skill set that is provided in PPCT. That guy would get bashed and I would be a scumbag. And a MMA fight probably won't kill or cripple you. A criminal just might.

There is a very good reason that PPCT is not dominating the free market.

The purpose of PPCT is quite simply this.

If I am working and get in to a fight and am getting wailed on and I hit the guy and kill him. My company can then say that I was sufficiently trained to handle a threat. That had I been injured their obligations to a safe work environment is covered and that I acted outside their guidelines and so am basically on my own.

And should I suggest that the training is inadequate then I don't get signed off on that training and am unable to work.

 

[Earl Weiss]

...................

So with PPCT you are taught by a guy who's fight record is qualifications in PPCT and whose purpose is to protect a companies liability..........................................
And I have never seen a PPCT instructor held accountable for when their training course gets someone hurt. Part of the training as to be able to justify the level of force
If I put a guy in a MMA fight with the skill set that is provided in PPCT. That guy would get bashed and I would be a scumbag. And a MMA fight probably won't kill or cripple you. A criminal just might.
.

>>>So with PPCT you are taught by a guy who's fight record is qualifications in PPCT and whose purpose is to protect a companies liability...<<
I din't get that at all The Instructor was a SWAT Team Commander. , Trained in BJJ at the Torrance academy, and was an ITF 4th Dan. Part of the training as to be able to justify the level of force

>>And I have never seen a PPCT instructor held accountable for when their training course gets someone hurt.<<
Are you aware of any instance where anyone tried to hold them accountable? I often wondered about using it as a defene, for instance the recent now infamous 16 shot case where the criminal had an edged weapon. Would have been interesting to see a training defense - PPCT or other.

>>>If I put a guy in a MMA fight with the skill set that is provided in PPCT. That guy would get bashed and I would be a scumbag<<
Their was no mention of the training being of optimal use in MMA by the instructor. I never thought it was represented to be such.

 

[drop bear]

Their was no mention of the training being of optimal use in MMA by the instructor. I never thought it was represented to be such.

Ok. But how is it represented?

At what level of training are people expected to fight people as part of their job requirement.

 

[drop bear]

Are you aware of any instance where anyone tried to hold them accountable? I often wondered about using it as a defene, for instance the recent now infamous 16 shot case where the criminal had an edged weapon. Would have been interesting to see a training defense - PPCT or other.

I was considering the other way where officers get injured. And from my experience people will point at the bad guy and blame him. Which is kind of a cop out as you are there to deal with bad guys and quite simply should be set up properly to do so.

As far as shooting an edged weapon guy. There is no training that is really about the only safe method.

I din't get that at all The Instructor was a SWAT Team Commander. , Trained in BJJ at the Torrance academy, and was an ITF 4th Dan. Part of the training as to be able to justify the level of force

Not a requirement to have that background. Though and almost a completely different process to BJJ. Which should be a red flag in itself.

If someone gets good via method A and then sells method B. How do you justify method B?

 

[jobo]

Ok. But how is it represented?

At what level of training are people expected to fight people as part of their job requirement.

im not sure they are to be at any level and to the most extent i agree, thats its all about reducing company liability, with the company not really caring about the outcome as long as they aren't liable

there's really two ways of looking at this, from a point of people who can already look after themselves, that's bouncers and some police, mostly

the point of the training is to stop them beating people up, to the point that they become liable, neither the police or the club owners care how badly people are hurt as long as they can blame the guy for taking it to far.

and staff who are less able but but vulnerable to attack that's most of the UK police and people in public interactions to the most part, any training they receive will be inadequate for the purpose, but they have had training and there's little more that the company can be expected to do

ive seen on police forums PCs complaining that at best they get half a day a year training on arresting difficult people. if there not prpared to devote their own time to fitness and techniques then they are totally reliant on gasing or perhaps tasering people, if that's not available or doesnt work, they at best lose the criminal and at worst get beaten to a pulp

 

[drop bear]

im not sure they are to be at any level and to the most extent i agree, thats its all about reducing company liability, with the company not really caring about the outcome as long as they aren't liable

there's really two ways of looking at this, from a point of people who can already look after themselves, that's bouncers and some police, mostly

the point of the training is to stop them beating people up, to the point that they become liable, neither the police or the club owners care how badly people are hurt as long as they can blame the guy for taking it to far.

and staff who are less able but but vulnerable to attack that's most of the UK police and people in public interactions to the most part, any training they receive will be inadequate for the purpose, but they have had training and there's little more that the company can be expected to do

Yeah. Pretty much.

And this is the way a buisness works.

I worked a place that had a heap of manual handling injuries. So instead of having anyone even vaguely qualified look at the process we do. We were instructed to perform a stretching routine each day.

SD. For industry basically is the same thing.

I had to pay for a course once a year to learn I think it was called defensive tactics.

As far as I am concerned someone was just stealing money and time from me.

Sorry. Control person's using empty hands.

 

[jobo]

Yeah. Pretty much.

And this is the way a buisness works.

I worked a place that had a heap of manual handling injuries. So instead of having anyone even vaguely qualified look at the process we do. We were instructed to perform a stretching routine each day.

SD. For industry basically is the same thing.

I had to pay for a course once a year to learn I think it was called defensive tactics.

As far as I am concerned someone was just stealing money and time from me.

i was kidnaped and held hostage once, by a middle aged woman of about 5,2 tall

who was so annoyed at my employer, her landlord not carry out repairs, that she locked her doors, put the keys down her cleavage and refused to let me go until her central heating was fixed, something i couldn't do, with out going for parts

she then rang my employer with her demands, i spent most of the day drinking coffee and watching snooker, and was quite distress when the police arrived and kicked the door down to rescue me, she was already cooking me steak and chips for tea

two things stand out, one) it took the police 5 hours to respond to a kidnapping and 2) they sent me on a how not to get kidnapped course, that contained no info on how to get a door key back from an old woman's cleavage

 

[drop bear]

i was kidnaped and held hostage once, by a middle aged woman of about 5,2 tall

who was so annoyed at my employer, her landlord not carry out repairs, that she locked her doors, put the keys down her cleavage and refused to let me go until her central heating was fixed, something i couldn't do, with out going for parts

she then rang my employer with her demands, i spent most of the day drinking coffee and watching snooker, and was quite distress when the police arrived and kicked the door down to rescue me, she was already cooking me steak and chips for tea

two thinks stand out, one) it took the police 5 hours to respond to a kidnapping and 2) they sent me on a how not to get kidnapped course, that contained no info on how to get a door key back from an old woman's cleavage

Yeah. After a mate of mine got stabbed we were all put on a how not to get stabbed course.

Which was quite simply a debacle.

The thing is even quality martial artists run in to this impossible situation when they try to set up restraint and control systems.

And yet still do it.

 

[geezer]

Yeah. After a mate of mine got stabbed we were all put on a how not to get stabbed course....Which was quite simply a debacle. The thing is even quality martial artists run in to this impossible situation when they try to set up restraint and control systems. ...And yet still do it.

Watching that clip you posted reminded me of a good scene in the movie Dead Man's Cards that shows what could happen if you were to buy into what they teach in some of those security courses. Check out 12:30 - 13:50 in the clip below.

 

[dvcochran]

My old department used to send me away every year to get certified in one thing or another. It was a blast, company car, expense account, nice lodgings, a week of training in one “latest thing” or another. PPCT was one of them, went to their course a few years. It was a program somebody came up with to sell to Law Enforcement. It was okay if you hadn’t had any kind of training before. And the guys who ran it were nice enough. But if you were into serious Martial Arts you thought “I should get in on this racket”.

If any of you guys with experience went there you would be thinking that, too. But it was a nice break from work.

I never took a PPCT course directly. Over time I learned that the TKD I have trained in has been fairly comprehensive in teaching pressure points and how/when to use them. I don't believe there is a Dim mak technique, at least none I ever learned. I can say I used PPC in my LEO days but most of the time an altercation ended up needing brute strength or multiple officers to cuff or diffuse a situation while minimizing real harm.
Maybe I just never learned PPC well enough.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If someone gets good via method A and then sells method B. How do you justify method B?

Because the goals of method A and method B may be very different, as well as various other situational parameters. Method A may have a goal of a private individual seeking to survive a violent encounter. Method B my be a LEO who needs to more carefully evaluate the level of force needed and used to Superiors, courts, and the press / public. There may even be a methods C which are simply to destroy the adversary, and method D which is to protect the High Value Target. There was no confusion here since many attendees had striking and grappling backgrounds and question the methodology presented, and the instructor would say that he was teaching this system part of which was to justify the force used per item B above.

 

[drop bear]

Because the goals of method A and method B may be very different, as well as various other situational parameters. Method A may have a goal of a private individual seeking to survive a violent encounter. Method B my be a LEO who needs to more carefully evaluate the level of force needed and used to Superiors, courts, and the press / public. There may even be a methods C which are simply to destroy the adversary, and method D which is to protect the High Value Target. There was no confusion here since many attendees had striking and grappling backgrounds and question the methodology presented, and the instructor would say that he was teaching this system part of which was to justify the force used per item B above.

Yeah it is funny. People think because they are employed to fight violent offenders that they will learn to do that. And then they get an instructor who is some BJJ swat bad ***. And that they will learn the some of his skills.

And instead get PPCT.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Yeah it is funny. People think because they are employed to fight violent offenders that they will learn to do that. And then they get an instructor who is some BJJ swat bad ***. And that they will learn the some of his skills.

And instead get PPCT.

Not the case at all. I happened to be acquainted with the instructor and so I knew his background. That information was not disclosed to people before they signed up during the course, or after, So, no one had any expectations of learning anything other than what the PPCT courses offered. As far as bad ***ery goes, he related an interesting story of SWAT training where they brought in ex special forces guys and everyone was equipped with paintball guns, He said those guys were truly bad***. He said one of the only times the SWT guy with big egos were intimidated. He explained that usual scenarios have the SWAT guys against people they out number with no training and not nearly as well armed. Here they were up against guys that were better trained, equally armed and experienced in combat scenarios. He said they wiped out the swat guys in every scenario. Point being he was well aware PPCT was not the be all and end all and never represented it to be such.