The Anti-Bullying Action Idea thread

[oftheherd1]

Yes and no. I'm ashamed of it, but I'm pretty self aware.

IMHO that's a big leap that most people don't make. Good for you.
...

Fortunately, because I dealt with it the hard way over a period of decades, my son benefited when I saw the same behavior in him.

Lucky for your son. And again, good on you. Most of us don't like to admit to ourselves when we do wrong, much less to someone else. That takes a big mind. I work on it but am unsuccessful more often than not.

I would actually appreciate more education in this area. If we're talking about kids, I just don't see it being assault. There are points where it progresses to assault. Are there any LEO or lawyers who are familiar with juvenile law?

No doubt someone else will jump in and correct me if I am wrong. But I don't think the law makes a distinction between adults and juveniles as regards the elements of most crimes. They may choose to handle some procedures and punishment differently, but usually a crime is a crime, regardless of the age of an offender.

I wonder if you are disinclined to consider bullying less than a crime because of you own experiences? And if you therefore have separated bullying as a type of act, from the manifestation of the act of bullying, which in fact manifests itself as criminal behavior. Even the act you described above would be a crime in some jurisdictions. In the UCMJ (military law), it was called Provoking Speeches and Gestures ( http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm117.htm ). Granted it was a thing seldom used, but it was there and available for punishment of that type of conduct. If you read the link, it was there to try and prevent a breach of the peace, something which you in fact accomplished.

Nonetheless, I think it is something worthy of discussion. Should we give kids a pass on the law when they bully? Could we use that in any way as a tool to prevent bullying?

 

[Steve]

Here's a fact sheet from the State of Virginia. It's interesting because it clarifies some of the definitions, but if you look at the "What to do" section, no where does it say, "Call the police." Instead, it offers the same old advice, some practical and some not.

http://www.virginiarules.com/virginia-rules/bullying

This is pretty typical. Bullying isn't illegal. And as adults, bullying isn't illegal, either, even in the workplace. People think that if your boss is awful, setting you up to fail, embarrassing you in front of your peers, shifting workloads, and even lying about all of it, that it's discrimination or a hostile workplace. It's not... usually. It's very rare that a situation progresses that far.

Most bullying, with kids and with adults, isn't criminal. It's being mean... cruel, even, in a very specific and methodical way. Even with a physical component, it doesn't begin to approach illegal until there's a real or perceived safety concern.

 

[lklawson]

Here's a fact sheet from the State of Virginia. It's interesting because it clarifies some of the definitions, but if you look at the "What to do" section, no where does it say, "Call the police." Instead, it offers the same old advice, some practical and some not.

http://www.virginiarules.com/virginia-rules/bullying

[h=3]If I am being bullied, what should I do?[/h] You can stand up to bullies if you know what to do.

• Try to talk it out. Say, “Why are you being mean to me?” Translation: Do something ineffective
• Walk away from the bully. Translation: Try to keep away from the bully even though it's impossible; voluntarily ostracize yourself.
• Speak up. Say, “Stop picking on me!” Translation: Do something ineffective
• Make a joke. If you say something funny, even about yourself, the bully might laugh and forget to pick on you. Translation: Be a proxy bully to yourself for the actual bully.
• Stick with your friends. Translation: Try to keep away from the bully even though it's impossible; voluntarily ostracize yourself.
• Ask an adult for help. Translation: Ask an adult to help; they can't actually do anything either but it might make you feel better.
• Don't get physical. Translation: Just stand there and take it, he'll wear out eventually and maybe you'll still have some teeth; remember we have Zero Thought... err.. Zero Tolerance rules here.

You're right, same-ol-same-ol.

This is pretty typical. Bullying isn't illegal. And as adults, bullying isn't illegal, either, even in the workplace. People think that if your boss is awful, setting you up to fail, embarrassing you in front of your peers, shifting workloads, and even lying about all of it, that it's discrimination or a hostile workplace. It's not... usually. It's very rare that a situation progresses that far.

Most bullying, with kids and with adults, isn't criminal. It's being mean... cruel, even, in a very specific and methodical way. Even with a physical component, it doesn't begin to approach illegal until there's a real or perceived safety concern.

Thanks for clearing that up. I agree there is a lot of confusion so I appreciate you posting this link.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[oftheherd1]

Steve,

The thread you mention is interesting. And although it points out that bullying isn't itself a crime in the Virginia Commonwealth, it does say, as I did, that many of the acts through which bullying is manifested, are themselves criminal acts, such as punching, threats, hazing, etc.

And many of the things mentioned are physical, and safety concerns. But I think we are just going to have to accept that we have different understandings of a definition of bullying, and move on. I don't quite agree with yours, and obviously you don't agree with mine. That's OK, since we each have a right to our own opinion.

I think you have a unique perspective on bullying that most of us don't have. I am still processing all you have said, and still find your perspective fascinating. I know what you have already said, but am now wondering if you have any other suggestions that might be useful when someone asks any of us what to do if a child we know is being bullied. I agree the suggestions on the Virginia site seem a little trite, but are there better ones? I'm really interested since as I said, most of us lack the advantage you have of the perspective of both sides of the issue. Is there anything that might have prevented you from bullying that wasn't tried?

 

[Steve]

Steve,

The thread you mention is interesting. And although it points out that bullying isn't itself a crime in the Virginia Commonwealth, it does say, as I did, that many of the acts through which bullying is manifested, are themselves criminal acts, such as punching, threats, hazing, etc.

Criminal... sort of. Again, even where they are "criminal acts," there is no practical legal component. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I think you're right, but that it's a somewhat academic label that isn't all that practical. What i mean is, when a child is bullied, even physically bullied, the police are very unlikely to be involved. The child or children may be disciplined, but the progressive discipline is a matter of school and district policy than local, state or federal law. That is, unless it's severe enough that the kids and adults involved believe there is a threat to a child's safety. Most won't. I hope that clears it up.

And many of the things mentioned are physical, and safety concerns. But I think we are just going to have to accept that we have different understandings of a definition of bullying, and move on. I don't quite agree with yours, and obviously you don't agree with mine. That's OK, since we each have a right to our own opinion.

Absolutely. My only concern is that we're understanding each other, so that when I say "bully," you understand what I mean, and vice versa.

I think you have a unique perspective on bullying that most of us don't have. I am still processing all you have said, and still find your perspective fascinating. I know what you have already said, but am now wondering if you have any other suggestions that might be useful when someone asks any of us what to do if a child we know is being bullied. I agree the suggestions on the Virginia site seem a little trite, but are there better ones? I'm really interested since as I said, most of us lack the advantage you have of the perspective of both sides of the issue. Is there anything that might have prevented you from bullying that wasn't tried?

Okay, I'll just lay it out as clearly as I can, and I've mentioned some of this in earlier posts.

I'll start by saying that the reason kids bully other kids varies. There is no one thing that will work for all kids. So, given that, I'm not going to worry overly much about every possible contingency, so that I can be somewhat specific.

To start, in general, we have a couple of social issues right now. First is that, in general, there is a tendency to look to the courts for answers instead of working them out ourselves. Second, helicopter parenting and an emphasis on standardized testing has limited our kids ability to learn problem solving and critical thinking skills that allow them to act independently. Add to this the ability to google anything, and we have an entire generation of kids for whom information is a disposable commodity. In other words, kids now do very little solving problems. They are trained from birth to first look for someone else to solve it for them. It's something that manifests in almost every aspect of society.

So, in that vein, I started with my son by asking what he could have done differently and putting the onus on him to change the situation. In a way, I guess you could say that I'm blaming the victim. I think that's a negative way of saying that I insist that a child who is bullied is not powerless to change the situation. This is a frame of mind that is critical, and it both stems from and feeds self confidence and a sense of control.

Personally, I bullied because I became determined to exert some control over my own situation. I wasn't going to be bullied. I believe that's absolutely the right mind set. Now, what I needed then, was someone to channel my determination to take action with tools that would help me do so in a positive way. Lacking those tools, I saw things in pretty simple terms: victims and bullies. I didn't want to be a victim, so.... I lacked the experience and maturity to see other alternatives and didn't have a mentor or counselor to help.

So, first thing to do is to help the kids accept responsibility for their own situation and come up with a plan for taking control over their own actions.

Some other things I think are good ideas:

• Don't intercede directly unless it's a matter of safety or if you're asked (or have asked) your child to do so first. I don't mean behind the scenes. What I'm talking about is "saving" your child.
• Be vocal with the school staff. Talk to them. Ask them questions and be assertive. Advocate for your child.
• Understand the difference between unconditional love and living with blinders on. There is a very real possibility that your child is part of the problem. This isn't a judgement or a reflection on you, your parenting skills or even your child. Children are figuring stuff out, and the goal isn't to have a perfect young child. It's to have a happy, healthy, well adjusted adult, successful, adult child. Parenting is a marathon.
• Be an expert on your child's individual needs, be they medical, emotional or physical. Be patient with people who are not experts and take the time to educate them when necessary.
• Allow your child to struggle, but understand that there is a difference between struggling and suffering.

I'm sure I can think of others, but my intent wasn't/isn't to dominate the thread, and I hope that this gets back to what the original post had in mind.

 

[Noah_Legel]

I was bullied from Preschool all the way through High School, both physically and verbally. I will admit that I was a bit of a bully on chat rooms from time to time, because I had anonymity and power there, and there was a span of a few weeks where I did verbally and physically bully two Freshmen that I did not get along with in Geometry class when I was a Junior because I was older and bigger than they were and I wanted to see what it felt like to be on the giving end. I did stop bullying those two after a few weeks when I noticed that my efforts seemed to be affecting them outside of that one class, but as much as I hate to say it I enjoyed every second of it--bullying them was the only time that I felt I had any power over anything in the real world. I take no pride in that, and it is difficult for me to acknowledge and reveal that part of myself.

I suspect that bullies are either people who have been bullied (or abused) and are trying to take power back, rather like I did for a short time, people who have been raised in an environment that promotes bullying and bully-like behavior, or people who simply do not understand that they are bullying someone. With those things in mind, I think it in order to reduce bullying (you'll never stop it completely) we need to address both the bullied and the bully, as a couple people in this thread have already mentioned. We can tell children to be confident, avoid bullies, stay in groups, say "leave me alone" and tell the teacher all we want, but those things most often fail, and in some cases they make the bullying worse. I believe that the best thing that can be done is to address the bullies directly and get professional psychologists involved in finding the root of their behavior so that it can be changed. It is much easier to counsel the bullied when the bullying is stopped.

Short of that, as much as I know we all want to say to avoid it, the most historically reliable method of dealing with bullies is to fight back and win. I did all the things I was supposed to in order to curb the bullying I received, and the only bully I ever got to leave me alone was the one I punched square in the groin. My best friend had a very similar experience. People I know from other schools have had similar experiences. My own father figured out very early in his school career that this is what worked and took up the policy to take the direct approach immediately and beat up the bully, which solved his problems (and his younger brother's) right away. It may be the last thing we want to tell people to do, but without addressing the bully's behavior directly the only thing that works reliably to stop it is fighting back, whether we like it or not. The biggest problem that I see with that, other than the Zero Tolerance rule, is the fact that it does not stop the bully from being a bully to other people--it only resolves the issue on a case-by-case basis--so, once again, the best option is to find the bully and get professional help in treating their behavior.

That's just my opinion, and I am no professional.

 

[oftheherd1]

Steve and Never_A_Reflection,

Thanks very much for your insights and suggestions. You really have brought out some things about bullies I had not considered before. It makes me feel like a real dummy. I don't know what others here think, but believe your insights and suggestions are good and worthy of consideration. I think it may help with my grandkids as well, although I naturally hope I never have to find out. I understand no one solution is going to fit all circumstances, that is almost never true. But I feel like I have some new tools should I need them.

Steve, I do want to put you on the spot. I have always felt Never_A_Reflection's final and best solution of beating the bully to be closest to the a one-fits-all solution. But I have also heard of times when the bully felt so threatened, that he became worse, or enlisted hangers-on to ensure he could strike back more forcefully. Do you think that would have inclined you to stop being a bully, at least towards those who might have fought back? Sorry to ask you to bear your soul, but as I said, you, and now Never_A_Reflection, can show us a side we may never otherwise have access to. Never_A_Reflection, if you want to chime in on that please do.

One thing that interests me is how many others could speak up and acknowledge having been a bully, for whatever reason, but having moved on from it, just don't want to admit it as it so much is not how they want to be seen. In my case, I don't think I have bullied. But it would depend on definition.

I can recall some times when someone was being teased that I may have gone a little too far in my joining in. On after-thought, if I thought I may have crossed the line, I would always get with the 'victim' and make amends, or when I thought it had gone too far, say so to the crowd in some way to give them the out of stopping without looking weak. And there have definitely been times when I took up for someone who was being bullied. I always thought bullying was somewhat cowardly as well as mean behavior. Bullies seem to pick on people they consider defenseless, and I really dislike that.

Part of that is my upbringing, watching out for the underdog, and part because when you do things like that, you become rather unpopular yourself. And that can cause you to become a victim of bullying. It happened to me, especially in high school. There was never anything physical, but always the implied threat of violence, which I was careful to try and not provoke. My solution was to talk to those who did, but in as non-confrontational a method as possible. That pretty much worked for me and seemed to frustrate those trying to bully me no end.

Maybe the bully dance was a little different than now. But I would question their motives, suggest that I felt their attempts to provoke me to violence would not work, or whatever other non-agressive action seemed best. Since they would usually have picked a rather public setting to make themselves feel better, if I could get others to seem to agree with me and disagree with them, it put them at a disadvantage. Sometimes I would be told in private by others that they thought I did the right thing, but honestly, I tended not to feel very manly about it. I often wished I could just with great confidence, jump up in their face and scare them off or actually beat them up. Thankfully, I never tried that.

Anyone else wish to comment?

 

[lklawson]

Anyone else wish to comment?

As I said, I think most guys were bullied to some degree at some point. I know I was during my early school years. My mother recalls me taking a sewing pin to school for self protection. While I have no recollection of that event, I do remember several others. I clearly recall one event where I was walking home and was assaulted by a group of about 5 other kids (pushing, punches, mostly light stuff). I must have been about 10 and my 8 year old brother was with me. I grabbed a single person "skipping" toy someone had left in their yard, a weight at the end of a cord which gets attached to the ankle. I spun it about over my head like a slungshot and backed everyone off. By the time I was in High School, I had pretty much figured out how to deflect the bullying and and not be the easy target so it was not a problem for me any longer. However, it still griped my soul when I saw it happen to others. So much so, in fact, that on more than one occasion, I stepped in in defense of the victim. Yes, this did make me the new target. While I was able to stop it before it came to a fight, it was close on at least two occasions but eventually the bully backed down. But it was close and the bully did have to see that I was willing to stand up to him physically each time. OK, I admit that one was a not-quite-fight but also not-quite-not-a-fight. In that event, the bully threw a (really crappy) kick at me. I caught it, and twisted until he fell. No injuries but it could have escalated easily.

Damn. I haven't thought of any of those events in years. I can't begin to articulate the mix of emotions that hit me as I write. I'm already feeling the adrenalin dump. Cumulatively they really left an impression on me.

So what did I learn? I learned that all of this, "tell an adult, make fun of yourself, avoid the bully" is complete and utter BS that school systems put in place to avoid litigious parents. The only thing that ever worked once you became a target was the immediate threat of violence or, at the very least "standing up" and refusing to be the victim (which pretty much equates to the same thing). No, I don't feel as "bad ***" as this may seem to come across. I was almost always scared at the time.

You can only imagine how I actually felt when I found my own son being bullied. I didn't want him to have to go through the same stuff. I can't protect him from it but hopefully I have and can continue to prepare him to address it for himself.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Short of that, as much as I know we all want to say to avoid it, the most historically reliable method of dealing with bullies is to fight back and win. I did all the things I was supposed to in order to curb the bullying I received, and the only bully I ever got to leave me alone was the one I punched square in the groin. My best friend had a very similar experience. People I know from other schools have had similar experiences. My own father figured out very early in his school career that this is what worked and took up the policy to take the direct approach immediately and beat up the bully, which solved his problems (and his younger brother's) right away. It may be the last thing we want to tell people to do, but without addressing the bully's behavior directly the only thing that works reliably to stop it is fighting back, whether we like it or not. The biggest problem that I see with that, other than the Zero Tolerance rule, is the fact that it does not stop the bully from being a bully to other people--it only resolves the issue on a case-by-case basis--so, once again, the best option is to find the bully and get professional help in treating their behavior.

These stories are so universal in theme that I have concluded that they represent the majority of truth. Most of the time this is what it honestly, truly, takes to stop the behavior.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Steve and Never_A_Reflection,

Thanks very much for your insights and suggestions. You really have brought out some things about bullies I had not considered before. It makes me feel like a real dummy. I don't know what others here think, but believe your insights and suggestions are good and worthy of consideration. I think it may help with my grandkids as well, although I naturally hope I never have to find out. I understand no one solution is going to fit all circumstances, that is almost never true. But I feel like I have some new tools should I need them.

Steve, I do want to put you on the spot. I have always felt Never_A_Reflection's final and best solution of beating the bully to be closest to the a one-fits-all solution. But I have also heard of times when the bully felt so threatened, that he became worse, or enlisted hangers-on to ensure he could strike back more forcefully. Do you think that would have inclined you to stop being a bully, at least towards those who might have fought back? Sorry to ask you to bear your soul, but as I said, you, and now Never_A_Reflection, can show us a side we may never otherwise have access to. Never_A_Reflection, if you want to chime in on that please do.

Okay. So, a little more background. I am a ginger (well, was when I had hair. ) I have an IQ somewhere in the high 140s and we moved a lot. So, I'm in the 3rd grade and we move to Universal City, just outside of Texas. So, I'm new and ginger, which is bad enough. But then, about 2 months into the year, they put me in "gifted classes." So, an hour or so into the day I'd have to get up and go to the nerd classes. By the time I got back, I'd have a note on my desk telling me who was going to kick my *** after school. The community was new, so the elementary school was a walking school and about once a week, I'd get jumped by a group of kids in front of a large audience. Sometimes, I did okay, and sometimes I didn't. Sometimes it was one kid, and sometimes it was a group of up to 4 or 5 kids. But I'd get to stew on it all day, from about 10 in the morning until school ended. And kids would come by and remind me, "Hey. So and so is going to be waiting for you after school, carrot top. I can't wait." Yeah.

A year or so later, in Baton Rouge, LA, I was getting into fights at the bus stop where a group of kids would pick on me and my brother. One day, I'll never forget, this one kid who was the ringleader of that little group, and didn't even go to our school... he was a couple years older, jumped me and he's got me mounted and is pounding on me when the bus shows up. All the other kids get on the bus and the bus driver, from still on the bus, yells at us to knock it off, and when we don't, he just left me there. Took off.

After that was Houston, where, in the 5th grade, I tried a different tack. I started using tobacco for the first time and hanging around with the sharks in the school, to learn some survival skills. Then, in the 6th grade, we moved to Austin and I went to a private school where this poor kid just never had a chance.

So, all of that is background to just demonstrate that by the time I got to the private school, I had no fear of pain, and this kid represented absolutely no threat to me, even when he did try to fight back. I never punched him, but I would provoke him to the point that he would charge me, and I'd move out the way and let him run into a wall. He could grab me, but I'd been in so many fights by then that he had no chance. And had he actually landed a punch, I sincerely doubt it would have even registered. It's not like I hadn't been punched in the nose by people before.

One thing that interests me is how many others could speak up and acknowledge having been a bully, for whatever reason, but having moved on from it, just don't want to admit it as it so much is not how they want to be seen. In my case, I don't think I have bullied. But it would depend on definition.

I'm interested in that, as well, because I just can't believe that my experiences are unique. I'd like to think not, at least.

I can recall some times when someone was being teased that I may have gone a little too far in my joining in. On after-thought, if I thought I may have crossed the line, I would always get with the 'victim' and make amends, or when I thought it had gone too far, say so to the crowd in some way to give them the out of stopping without looking weak. And there have definitely been times when I took up for someone who was being bullied. I always thought bullying was somewhat cowardly as well as mean behavior. Bullies seem to pick on people they consider defenseless, and I really dislike that.

I would say that typical bullying isn't about bravery or cowardice as much as it's about low esteem, perceived control over a situation and a lack of social skills.

Part of that is my upbringing, watching out for the underdog, and part because when you do things like that, you become rather unpopular yourself. And that can cause you to become a victim of bullying. It happened to me, especially in high school. There was never anything physical, but always the implied threat of violence, which I was careful to try and not provoke. My solution was to talk to those who did, but in as non-confrontational a method as possible. That pretty much worked for me and seemed to frustrate those trying to bully me no end.

I went to Garfield High in Seattle as well as Marshall for night school and Summer school for two years. By the time I got into high school, I was smoking a pack a day along with other things AND on the chess team. I skirted around the periphery of both social groups and was as happy smoking weed as I was drinking coffee and talking about politics or philosophy. Point is, by underachieving and blending in, bullying just wasn't an issue for me anymore. Of course, I graduated from high school with a 1.7 GPA... but it turned out okay. While I still didn't have the social skills to become overly friendly with the mainstream groups, I found a solid home with the misfits of the school of all stripes, from the stoners to the nerds. I was as comfortable in the print shop as I was in the journalism room or out on the smoking ramp.

Maybe the bully dance was a little different than now. But I would question their motives, suggest that I felt their attempts to provoke me to violence would not work, or whatever other non-agressive action seemed best. Since they would usually have picked a rather public setting to make themselves feel better, if I could get others to seem to agree with me and disagree with them, it put them at a disadvantage. Sometimes I would be told in private by others that they thought I did the right thing, but honestly, I tended not to feel very manly about it. I often wished I could just with great confidence, jump up in their face and scare them off or actually beat them up. Thankfully, I never tried that.

Yeah, I don't know. I think that kids in high school can be helped quite a bit, but the real key is to start early. As I said before, being realistic and honest as an adult about who is doing what and why, and remembering that every child is a work in progress will help that kid more than telling them to find an adult.

I'll also say that I was still learning hard social lessons into my late twenties, through my time in the military and also early in my marriage, and it's only because I've been brutally honest with myself, along with having some friends who have been courageous enough to tell me the truth that I am where I am. I genuinely wish that I'd had that as a child, and that more than anything is what I'm talking about. Would have saved me a lot of pain.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I was reading this thread over, and really would like to bring it back. I know that people shared their personal stories on here, and respect that a lot, however I don't think that is the way this thread was meant to go. Does anyone have any practical way to help people being bullied and try to stop bullying from occurring?

Despite what I said, I'm not trying to undercut anyone else's experiences, so I would like to share my own as well, so you guys don't think I don't take your personal experiences seriously.

I do not have any mental problem that we know of, however I was bullied quite a lot when I was younger, in two distinct ages. First, when I was in preschool, I had a serious speech problem, to the point where only my brother could understand what I was saying until I was about 6, and the problem still hadn't gone away. Because of that, I had no friends in preschool, and my very first memories were me crying in class and no one wanting to play with me. Also, in 4th grade I had a class with my best friend and someone else who was being picked on. A few weeks into the school year I told the kids who were picking on him to stop, but being small and having a weird voice no one cared and just started verbally and physically abusing me instead. My best friend stopped talking to me so he wouldn't get picked on and both him and the kid who I stood up for joined in, it continued for the entire year. I cut myself in 4th grade, and if it wasn't for my dog and my brother I probably would have killed myself. I started taking Kempo seriously because of that, and to catch up to my brothers rank, and got in a few fights that year and the year after to stop the bullying. I got in trouble, and some teachers thought I was a bully, but it worked so I was ok with that. That was the end of my being bullied. However, I no longer hung out with my 'jock' friends, and started hanging out with a nerdier crowd who I found to be nicer and more fun. They still got bullied, so I ended up standing up for them, and throughout middle school/the beginning of high school I got in multiple fights defending them from bullies, once or twice sending people to the hospital. No one but the people involved and my family ever knew it was me, and my family never found out how severe it was, and chalked it up to the anger problems they thought I had (and I did have them, just not as bad as my family thought I did). Eventually people stopped bullying my friends as well, and in college luckily no one has tried to bully any of my friends, but they all know that if they did I would protect them.

HOWEVER, this, in my mind, is the absolute worst way to deal with bullying. I could have accidentally killed someone, or been put in juvie just for sticking up for my friends. I could have also been killed accidentally (I don't think any of them really wanted to kill me). I'm sure there must be a better way to deal with it, and would love if people could brainstorm ideas to find that better way. Despite the original post, I don't care if it is or isn't related to martial arts, as long as its effective and isn't as dangerous as the solution I had come up with. So pleas, brainstorm away. I will probably contribute when I don't have to worry about a final in the morning that I should be resting for.

 

[WC_lun]

I honestly do not know how to really curtail the bullying unless it is nipped in the bud as soon as it apears. I've had to endure the stories of my 13 year old nephew and his best friend being bullied. One instance involved my nephew getting stabbed by another student with a pencil unprovoked. The next day my nephew took things into his own hands. Similiar situation with his best friend. Though in both cases the boys were defending themselves from bullying they recieved the same and in my nephew's case greater repurcussions than the bullies. Until schools start using common sense and teachers and administrators are willing to get involved at the very first sign of a problem, it will continue.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

How you deal with bullying is have all the students band together to protect the victim whenever it happens. This validates the victim as a human being and forces the bully to consider taking on the whole school or changing his ways. Unfortunately bullying is entertaining for everyone except the victim. It's encouraged sadism that says a lot about the spectators' lack of compassion. It requires a paradigm shift of care that I doubt we'll ever see unless it's enforced. This is how I think bullies should be dealt with not how I want them dealt with (removed from society as dangerous human beings).

By nature a bully picks someone easy. It's not the victim's fault that they're easy, nor is it always possible for a victim to stand up to a bully and his six friends. Nor can the victim expect anything to be done to protect them. They're told every cliche only to return to misery and thoughts of suicide. A rapist is a bully. A bully can be a rapist. That's the seriousness of it and should be dealt with as such, not accepted as a part of growing up or merely as a part of life.

I guess people are only as rational as it suits them personally.

 

[lklawson]

How you deal with bullying is have all the students band together to protect the victim whenever it happens.

How exactly do you accomplish this since it goes against human nature?

Unfortunately bullying is entertaining for everyone except the victim.

Bullying isn't usually about entertainment for the bully and it never is for the spectators. It's about power, survival instinct, and tribalism/acceptance instincts.

It's encouraged sadism that says a lot about the spectators' lack of compassion.

No it doesn't. It proves that the spectators are typical humans who have never had any specific training to circumvent their natural reactions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

It requires a paradigm shift of care that I doubt we'll ever see unless it's enforced.

I'm sorry, friend, but you can't "enforce" it. It requires specific socialization skills to be taught right along with "it's wrong to lie" and "wash your hands after you pee."

By nature a bully picks someone easy.

Frequently, but not always. More often than not, I'd say. That's why "standing up to them" with physical violence is so often effective.

They're told every cliche only to return to misery and thoughts of suicide.

I agree. The stock answers are, to be more kind than is warranted, idiotic beyond belief.

A rapist is a bully.

There's a whole lot to a rape that often isn't just "bullying" so let's not confuse and conflate the two. Let's keep they physiology of each separate for now. It's extremely complex.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Em MacIntosh]

"Human Nature" is an excuse people use when they don't want to try, not an explanation for why something won't work. Human nature is sentience and decision. The ability to reason.

That being said, the first casualty of passion is reason. I'm livid right now, snowballing on the subject.

I'll just say that my experiences disagree with most of what you've said. Perhaps I can address it specifically when I calm down.

 

[Touch Of Death]

There's a whole lot to a rape that often isn't just "bullying" so let's not confuse and conflate the two. Let's keep they physiology of each separate for now. It's extremely complex.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

This is just a personal revelation, but I see rapists as being lazy. They choose the easiest targets, and just like thieves, they would rather steal what they want than work for it. Just a thought. Also, I'm sure rapists feel like they are a victim of something; so, the first work they need to do, is change the way they feel, and that ain't easy.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

This is just a personal revelation, but I see rapists as being lazy. They choose the easiest targets, and just like thieves, they would rather steal what they want than work for it. Just a thought. Also, I'm sure rapists feel like they are a victim of something; so, the first work they need to do, is change the way they feel, and that ain't easy.
Sean

I'm not sure you want to go down this road. It would be better to leave rape out of this, rapists aren't 'lazy', their motives are far darker and far worse.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm not sure you want to go down this road. It would be better to leave rape out of this, rapists aren't 'lazy', their motives are far darker and far worse.

I know, that is why I mentioned the victim mentality, and I will stand by that!, but trust me they are taking something that doesn't belong to them.

 

[Tez3]

I know, that is why I mentioned the victim mentality, and I will stand by that!, but trust me they are taking something that doesn't belong to them.

It's odd that you can put a smiley on your sentence. Sex and sexual urges have little to do with rape and it's all about power,degradation, violence and humiliation for the victim. It's not about the sexual act it's about how the rapist can make the vistim feel, they use the sexual act because it's a certain way to degrade the person they are doing it to. It's sex as power.
Most people laugh when they see their dog 'humping' someone's leg, they think it's that their dog is being 'sexy' or something, wrong it's about power, that dog is saying that he's literally the top dog, he's in charge. A lot of animals will use the sexual act to impose their will, humans are no different. Rape is used by those in charge of invading armies as a means to subdue the people, it humiliates more than the person raped. In Libya before Gaddafi fell he gave his soldiers Viagra to enable them to rape more women, he's not been the only dictator to do this.

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/whymythsexist2.php


As I said you don't really want to go down this route on this thread.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's odd that you can put a smiley on your sentence. Sex and sexual urges have little to do with rape and it's all about power,degradation, violence and humiliation for the victim. It's not about the sexual act it's about how the rapist can make the vistim feel, they use the sexual act because it's a certain way to degrade the person they are doing it to. It's sex as power.
Most people laugh when they see their dog 'humping' someone's leg, they think it's that their dog is being 'sexy' or something, wrong it's about power, that dog is saying that he's literally the top dog, he's in charge. A lot of animals will use the sexual act to impose their will, humans are no different. Rape is used by those in charge of invading armies as a means to subdue the people, it humiliates more than the person raped. In Libya before Gaddafi fell he gave his soldiers Viagra to enable them to rape more women, he's not been the only dictator to do this.

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/whymythsexist2.php


As I said you don't really want to go down this route on this thread.

I don't remember mentioning sex and sexual urges.