The animals in Kempo/Kenpo

[KempoGuy06]

Well...I know the five animals that we use in SKK are the tiger, crane, leopard, dragon and snake.

Why these five animals in SKK?
Are there other animals? What are they?
Why didnt the other ones make the cut?

Im a little curious. I got to thinking and realized i dont know that much other than a few pieces of information. I thought it would be to learn more. Share your knowledge if you dont mind or point me in the right direction.

B

 

[Flying Crane]

This topic has come up in some other threads. Check out this one, you might find it helpful:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42205&highlight=kenpo+animals

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have wondered about this myself from time to time. I can see that some of the animals relate to the elemental agencies,

Tiger metal
Dragon wood
Snake water (though it is usually the tortoise)

The crane and the leopard are not normally associated with the elements.

Each animal has a traditional set of attributes associated with combat as well.

Tiger destructive power
Dragon vicious speed
Snake mysterious movement
Crane graceful movement
Leopard blinding speed

I suppose that when viewed in this light the form and techniques associated with the five animals would produce a strong fighting art.

It does have to be remembered, however, that the animal forms were the basis of the ancient shaolin art. After mastering these forms students might move on to more esoteric forms like Buddha Palm.

 

[Blindside]

I know zip about Shaolin Kenpo, but for some reason the Tracy Kenpo system sells these images of the 5 animals, which completely baffles me. Tracy Kenpo is far enough down the Parker path that you move like, well, like a human. I have heard some people try to categorize movement into these animals and that just confuses me. Tell me "snap that jab out and back, quick!" rather than "fight him snake style" The animal analogies just don't work for me, and I suspect they are more of a marketing gimmick than a true training tool.

Lamont

 

[Flying Crane]

I know zip about Shaolin Kenpo, but for some reason the Tracy Kenpo system sells these images of the 5 animals, which completely baffles me. Tracy Kenpo is far enough down the Parker path that you move like, well, like a human. I have heard some people try to categorize movement into these animals and that just confuses me. Tell me "snap that jab out and back, quick!" rather than "fight him snake style" The animal analogies just don't work for me, and I suspect they are more of a marketing gimmick than a true training tool.

Lamont

I agree, nothing about Tracy kenpo leads me to believe it is a "five animal", or any other animal based system.

Animals are used as parts of the names of the Self Defense techs, but those were just names created by the Tracys when organizing their curriculum.

Obviously we use things like Tiger Claws and Crane Beaks, but that isn't enough to make something "animal based".

 

[KempoGuy06]

This topic has come up in some other threads. Check out this one, you might find it helpful:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42205&highlight=kenpo+animals

My fault. I posted in that thread. :whip: for me being stupid.

Anyway i guess we can continue this one. I know what Steel Tiger is talking about (Tiger destructive power ect...) I have heard that as well.

In the other thread someone mentioned monkey style. I believe this involves a lot of quick foot work. Here in my city at a Hung Gar school the Sifu there teaches mantis style strike with monkey style footwork (mantis has precise strikes/slow footwork, monkey has fast footwork).

What is this Tracy Kenpo? (no disrespect only heard of it from the site never seen it in action.)

At my school the animal "principles" (i guess we can call them that) are related to almost everything we learn.

Has anyone found out anything on why these were the animals chosen? I will ask my instructor tomorrow and see if he can tell me anything.

B

 

[Flying Crane]

What is this Tracy Kenpo? (no disrespect only heard of it from the site never seen it in action.)

B

Al, Will, and Jim Tracy were students of Ed Parker, who was a student of William Chow in Hawaii. The Tracys were among Mr. Parker's earliest students, back in the 1950s and 1960s. As Mr. Parker changed the art and formulated what is now known as American Kenpo, or EPAK Kenpo (Ed Parker's American Kenpo), the Tracys disagreed with the changes that he was making. They chose to keep the original art, and ultimately separated from Mr. Parker. Today, there are many similarities between the two, but there are also many differences.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Al, Will, and Jim Tracy were students of Ed Parker, who was a student of William Chow in Hawaii. The Tracys were among Mr. Parker's earliest students, back in the 1950s and 1960s. As Mr. Parker changed the art and formulated what is now known as American Kenpo, or EPAK Kenpo (Ed Parker's American Kenpo), the Tracys disagreed with the changes that he was making. They chose to keep the original art, and ultimately separated from Mr. Parker. Today, there are many similarities between the two, but there are also many differences.

Oh thanks.

B

 

[Steel Tiger]

My fault. I posted in that thread. :whip: for me being stupid.

Anyway i guess we can continue this one. I know what Steel Tiger is talking about (Tiger destructive power ect...) I have heard that as well.

In the other thread someone mentioned monkey style. I believe this involves a lot of quick foot work. Here in my city at a Hung Gar school the Sifu there teaches mantis style strike with monkey style footwork (mantis has precise strikes/slow footwork, monkey has fast footwork).

What is this Tracy Kenpo? (no disrespect only heard of it from the site never seen it in action.)

At my school the animal "principles" (i guess we can call them that) are related to almost everything we learn.

Has anyone found out anything on why these were the animals chosen? I will ask my instructor tomorrow and see if he can tell me anything.

B

Thought you might like this, don't know if it actually explains why the animals were chosen, though.

Shaolin first became famous because the Tang Dynasty (618–907) saw fit to favor the monastery with its patronage as thanks for the contribution of its monks to the Battle of Hulao. The sudden renown of the Shaolin martial arts attracted pilgrims who came specifically to study its fighting methods. However, the more people that sought training at the temple, the smaller the proportion of them that had the time or the inclination to truly dedicate themselves. But really they didn't know who to choose first and why. Some regarded the Shaolin imprimatur as a kind of talisman that rendered years of training unnecessary. Others only wanted to fight well and cared little for esoterica like qìgōng, erasing over centuries the difference between the Shaolin martial arts and those crude methods on which it was supposed to improve.
The legendary Zhang Sanfeng is said by the nei jia schools that associate themselves with him to have trained Snake and Crane style Shaolin martial arts.
Another was Jueyuan, who in the 13th century started from first principles with the 18 Luohan Hands, the original 18 techniques of the Shaolin martial arts. Like those before him, Jueyuan used the original 18 Luohan Hands as a foundation, expanding its 18 techniques into 72. Still, he felt the need to seek knowledge from outside the confines of the temple.
In Gansu Province in the west of China, in the city of Lanzhou, he met Li Sou, a master of "red fist" Hóngquán (紅&#25331. Li Sou accompanied Jueyuan back to Henan, to Luoyang to introduce Jueyuan to Bai Yufeng, master of an internal method.
They returned to Shaolin with Bai Yufeng and expanded Jueyuan's 72 techniques to approximately 170. Moreover, using their combined knowledge, they restored internal aspects to Shaolin boxing.
They organized these techniques into Five Animals: the Tiger, the Crane, the Leopard, the Snake, and the Dragon.
​

 

[KempoGuy06]

Correct i did like that. It was pretty cool read. But like you said it doesnt explain why those 5 were chosen. Good post though. Im going to ask my instructor tonight if he know anything more. Im also gonna do some research this weekend. Thanks again.

B

 

[marlon]

i think thye were chosen for shaolin kempo because when you look to five animal kung fu these are the usual suspects. They represent, in my system, five different ways of fighting...that is how we use them and as i said i think they were chosen because they are the most proliferated in the west. there are many animals in kung fu not just these five

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Ray]

Al, Will, and Jim Tracy were students of Ed Parker, who was a student of William Chow in Hawaii. The Tracys were among Mr. Parker's earliest students, back in the 1950s and 1960s. As Mr. Parker changed the art and formulated what is now known as American Kenpo, or EPAK Kenpo (Ed Parker's American Kenpo), the Tracys disagreed with the changes that he was making. They chose to keep the original art, and ultimately separated from Mr. Parker. Today, there are many similarities between the two, but there are also many differences.

I believe that Ed Parker also learned from Ark Wong in California. I understand that Ark Wong practiced "5 Animal" kung fu.

 

[Seabrook]

Obviously we use things like Tiger Claws and Crane Beaks, but that isn't enough to make something "animal based".

True, but most wouldn't want it to be mostly "animal based" either.

 

[Flying Crane]

True, but most wouldn't want it to be mostly "animal based" either.

Of course, (Tracy) kenpo is not animal based in my opinion and I don't think anyone is trying to pretend that it is, nor insist that it should be. Animal based technique is some pretty amazing stuff, but not the only approach that gets good results. Kenpo has a good method, gets great results as well. There are some "animalesque" things in it, but not anywhere close to predominant. They are simply different approaches that can work well when done by a competent person. If you want animal stuff, find a good kung fu teacher who can teach it to you. If you want something that works well but don't care if it is not animal, kenpo is a good choice.

As far as the Shaolin Ken/mpo schools that claim to include the Five Animals, or other kung fu aspects, I cannot really comment since I don't know them. I can only say that Animal kung fu, including but not limited to Five Animals, can take on many different forms in Chinese arts. Just because something shares a name, doesn't mean it is the same thing. I discussed this a bit in the thread I linked to earlier in this thread.

So if these Shaolin Ken/mpo groups have brought in Five Animals from a legitimate source, then I guess they have it. If they just use a few tigerclaws, crane beaks, leopard fists, snake/spearhand jabs, and dragon claws (not sure how they differ from tigerclaws, but whatever) within their curriculum, and then claim to be Five Animals, I think that is inaccurate and probably misleading.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Of course, (Tracy) kenpo is not animal based in my opinion and I don't think anyone is trying to pretend that it is, nor insist that it should be. Animal based technique is some pretty amazing stuff, but not the only approach that gets good results. Kenpo has a good method, gets great results as well. There are some "animalesque" things in it, but not anywhere close to predominant. They are simply different approaches that can work well when done by a competent person. If you want animal stuff, find a good kung fu teacher who can teach it to you. If you want something that works well but don't care if it is not animal, kenpo is a good choice.

As far as the Shaolin Ken/mpo schools that claim to include the Five Animals, or other kung fu aspects, I cannot really comment since I don't know them. I can only say that Animal kung fu, including but not limited to Five Animals, can take on many different forms in Chinese arts. Just because something shares a name, doesn't mean it is the same thing. I discussed this a bit in the thread I linked to earlier in this thread.

So if these Shaolin Ken/mpo groups have brought in Five Animals from a legitimate source, then I guess they have it. If they just use a few tigerclaws, crane beaks, leopard fists, snake/spearhand jabs, and dragon claws (not sure how they differ from tigerclaws, but whatever) within their curriculum, and then claim to be Five Animals, I think that is inaccurate and probably misleading.

Very true Flying Crane. I know from my classes there are only a handful of strikes that do NOT relate to an animal form, thought i would throw that in there since it is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Anyway i did some research and put a thread up over in the CMA section http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=702956#post702956 to see if any of those guys had any more info. Check the link in that thread towards the bottom its got some pretty cool stuff on it.

B

PS-You picture makes me laugh Flying Crane

 

[Flying Crane]

KempoGuy06

Very true Flying Crane. I know from my classes there are only a handful of strikes that do NOT relate to an animal form, thought i would throw that in there since it is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Yes, my point is that just having some "animal" hand strikes doesn't make it an animal based system. We have counter names for many of these, that are not animal. A leopard fist is also a half fist. A snake hand can also be a spear hand.

In order to really be an animal system, there is something in the essence of how one moves and applies the technique and movement. There is an underlying base and theory upon which the hand strikes are built, which create this essence and make it a truly animal based system. It isn't just pantomiming how an animal moves, altho it CAN include that as well. But this movement and base creates a workable method that gives good results.

I wish I knew more about five animals and others. My main experience with animals is Tibetan White Crane, so I really only understand that (and certainly not perfectly). But given my experience with this, I see how the system is based on a specific theory. Methods of moving and striking are built upon that theory, and certain characteristics of how a real crane fights are built into the system. For example, a crane keeps distance while striking with its sharp beak. It dances out of reach of an enemy and doesn't get caught. It flaps its wings in the enemies face to keep it confused and blinded. Likewise, we don't like to close and grapple. We hit and run, or charge in and hit with a blizzard of longarm strikes from every direction. Kind of looks like a bird flapping its wings. But some of that movement is also based on an ape. Supposedly the art was created in the 1400s by a Tibetan Lama who witnessed a fight between a crane and a "mountain ape" (Tibet has a species of macaque, so if there is an truth in this story, it would probably be that). The system was developed using movements from both animals, as witnessed by the Lama. I guess the system should really be called Tibetan Crane and Ape style, but since I'm not ruling the world, it stays as Crane.

So given my understanding of Tibetan White Crane, I can say that any other animal art, be it Five Animals, or Stand Alone animals, would be based on a theory of movement, technique, and application, that has some parallel with, and gets inspiration from, that particular animal. Simply taking a reverse punch and substituting a tigerclaw instead of a closed fist, doesn't make the art Animal, or Tiger inspired. I don't know how your art does things, you can analyze it and think about what I am saying here and make your own judgement on it. Just giving my perspective.

Like I stated in the other thread that I referenced early on in this thread, different arts can carry the same name, but be very different in application. Fukien White Crane is completely different from Tibetan White Crane. Choy Li Fut's Five Animals can be very different from a different art's Five Animals. In Choy Li Fut, the Five Animals is a single internal set. In other arts, the Five Animals are separate sets, even multiple sets, and can be more external and more "obvious" for fighting application. There are many many ways to do things in the Chinese arts, even under the same name.


B

PS-You picture makes me laugh Flying Crane

Leon, from Blade Runner. See the movie, if you haven't. It's really good.

 

[DavidCC]

We're a SKK school and so we also use these 5 aniumals as teaching tools. but it seems not to the extent that others do.

We use them to organize the attributes of a good martial artist:

Dragon - Wisdom and Flexibility
Tiger - Strength and Courage
Leopard - Speed and Coordination
Crane - Balance and Grace
Snake - Qi and Deceptive Movement

We do teach some animal combos but they are not core to the material nor required for belt. Just variations on other combos really... for exploring what-ifs. No animal forms although we do have Rohai kata

 

[KempoGuy06]

Your post made me think Flying Crane (thanks now my head hursts ). Seriously though I understand what you mean. I see the animal reference in out strikes and well as the how they use them in our sparring. I have only limited knowledge on how deep the animals are seeded becasue I am only an orange belt. But this is something to think about and watch as i progress to black belt. Im curious to see how deep everything goes.

B

 

[Flying Crane]

Your post made me think Flying Crane (thanks now my head hursts ). Seriously though I understand what you mean. I see the animal reference in out strikes and well as the how they use them in our sparring. I have only limited knowledge on how deep the animals are seeded becasue I am only an orange belt. But this is something to think about and watch as i progress to black belt. Im curious to see how deep everything goes.

B

Glad to help.

In all seriousness, I would certainly be interested in hearing some answers from the higher-ups in your group. It would be interesting to know where the Five Animals material comes from specifically, if it was incorporated from a specific Chinese system like Choy Li Fut or Hung Gar. It would also be interesting to hear an explanation of how the animal material is manifest in your system, and how each animal is specifically applied and how their characteristics show themselves.

As I have mentioned before, there are many different methods that can share the same name. I have heard of another White Crane, of Wu Mei, something like that. And I think the Indonesian and/or Malaysian arts have a Crane influence, but these are all their own interpretation and are nothing like Tibetan or Fukien White Crane systems. So I guess in a way, someone could do their own interpretation of an animal and base their movement off of that, and give it the name. It's just that the Asian systems are well established and proven, often over centuries, and were developed by people who had a closer experience of the animal, to learn from it thru observation, and develop a system. I would be less trusting of a method developed by a guy in 2005 who spent time at the zoo watching the tigers sleep all day, and the cranes stand around doing nothing. It just isn't a quality experience that would give someone the insight to create their own martial system. And whenever a new martial system is created, it is done by someone with a strong background already. These things don't just spring up out of a vaccuum. So whatever background the person already had will definitely influence the "new" system.

Food for thought. Chew, swallow, digest, defecate...

 

[KempoGuy06]

Glad to help.

In all seriousness, I would certainly be interested in hearing some answers from the higher-ups in your group. It would be interesting to know where the Five Animals material comes from specifically, if it was incorporated from a specific Chinese system like Choy Li Fut or Hung Gar. It would also be interesting to hear an explanation of how the animal material is manifest in your system, and how each animal is specifically applied and how their characteristics show themselves.

As I have mentioned before, there are many different methods that can share the same name. I have heard of another White Crane, of Wu Mei, something like that. And I think the Indonesian and/or Malaysian arts have a Crane influence, but these are all their own interpretation and are nothing like Tibetan or Fukien White Crane systems. So I guess in a way, someone could do their own interpretation of an animal and base their movement off of that, and give it the name. It's just that the Asian systems are well established and proven, often over centuries, and were developed by people who had a closer experience of the animal, to learn from it thru observation, and develop a system. I would be less trusting of a method developed by a guy in 2005 who spent time at the zoo watching the tigers sleep all day, and the cranes stand around doing nothing. It just isn't a quality experience that would give someone the insight to create their own martial system. And whenever a new martial system is created, it is done by someone with a strong background already. These things don't just spring up out of a vaccuum. So whatever background the person already had will definitely influence the "new" system.

Food for thought. Chew, swallow, digest, defecate...

LOL! Guy at the zoo! Priceless! I can picture that now (the monkey system might involve a lot of poo if you catch my drift). LOL!

I will make it a point to ask my instructor. I meant to do it last night but in the flurry of the start of a new college semester I forgot. Anyway I will make a mental note to ask him. If he cant tell me I will try to persuade him to ask his instructor who is a 5th degree (i believe). so, he may know a little more.

b