The ability to defend

[MasterArtMason]

The work of Dave Grossman is especially useful here. I highly recommend it to you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I am not familiar with him. Available on Amazon?

 

[MasterArtMason]

what's wrong with the person who you worry about? If they have all the skills, some people are not fighters by nature, I'm not sure you can train that into them, but they should be able to throw a good punch or kick if someone jumps on them

I have had people, especially women either be a ball of fire, or fall apart totally at any kind of stress scenario. The ones who fell apart had always had something happen to them (assault rape etc). The fireballs were a mix of situations.

 

[lklawson]

I am not familiar with him. Available on Amazon?

He has some commercially written books, yes. Some Papers too. And some stuff which is probably locked in a metal filing cabinet in the Pentagon and marked "Secret" for no good reason.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

Yes there is a combination here, but what carries the most weight in your opinion?

Training to fight is not the same as training to do a technique. They are 2 separate things and requires 2 separate forms of training. Grappling systems are as close as you'll get to training how fight and training technique all at the same time.

Some people are less intuitive when it comes to fighting so you have explain and train things that come natural to most. I knew a guy that didn't have the natural response to put his hands up to deflect a ball that was thrown at him. He also didn't have the natural response to get out of the way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

All of the above. The will to defend (and to do damage as needed) goes a long way. Adding skill will increase a person's chance of success. Confidence (that core belief) also increases their chances (decreases chance of attack, increases chances of strong defense if well founded).

What carries the most weight probably varies. If someone has an abundance of physical ability (not skill, just their base athleticism) and willingness to be violent in defending themselves, that will be the most important factor for that person. For someone with less of those things, developed skill will matter more.

In that latter case, the style they study (and how they study it) starts to matter a lot more.

You touched on something that is very important; "The will to defend." Some people have it and others don't. We see it in animals as well. Some will fight back while others will do nothing at all to protect themselves. One would assume that everyone has the will to defend, but that isn't always the case.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some people are less intuitive when it comes to fighting so you have explain and train things that come natural to most. I knew a guy that didn't have the natural response to put his hands up to deflect a ball that was thrown at him. He also didn't have the natural response to get out of the way.

This is worth remembering when we're talking about what it takes for someone to be trained. That answer is different by individual. What is easy, pre-developed, and/or natural to some, is entirely foreign and difficult to others.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You touched on something that is very important; "The will to defend." Some people have it and others don't. We see it in animals as well. Some will fight back while others will do nothing at all to protect themselves. One would assume that everyone has the will to defend, but that isn't always the case.

And I think in most cases (not all, I think) we could call it a "threshold to defend". Some people will defend as soon as they feel threatened. Some as soon as it gets physical. Some only when it goes "too far" for them (which may be too late).

 

[CB Jones]

He has some commercially written books, yes. Some Papers too. And some stuff which is probably locked in a metal filing cabinet in the Pentagon and marked "Secret" for no good reason.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I like Dave Grossman's books.....but his seminars and lectures are where he really shines.

 

[drop bear]

no i don't think so, some people are not only able to fight but enjoy it. That not for everyone, I've seen people beaten half unconscious get up , break a bottle and go back for another go, you have to near kill them before they will give it up, others are holding their hands up after one good punch on the nose

A lot of that can be experience. If a broken nose is past their previous experience they can start to panic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of that can be experience. If a broken nose is past their previous experience they can start to panic.

Agreed. This is easy to see even with non-violent injuries. Most folks will respond relative to what they've experienced and/or observed in the past. Someone who has never had much more than bumps will react much worse to, say, a bad sprain or a minor break. Someone who has had breaks before is less likely to freak out over it. No guarantees of course, but some likelihood.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. This is easy to see even with non-violent injuries. Most folks will respond relative to what they've experienced and/or observed in the past. Someone who has never had much more than bumps will react much worse to, say, a bad sprain or a minor break. Someone who has had breaks before is less likely to freak out over it. No guarantees of course, but some likelihood.

Easiest example is knee ride in BJJ Until they realise they won't actually die you can use it as a submission

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Easiest example is knee ride in BJJ Until they realise they won't actually die you can use it as a submission

Yeah. Man, I hate those when someone with skill does them. Or, in place of the skill, and extra 50 pounds will do.

 

[JR 137]

Agreed. This is easy to see even with non-violent injuries. Most folks will respond relative to what they've experienced and/or observed in the past. Someone who has never had much more than bumps will react much worse to, say, a bad sprain or a minor break. Someone who has had breaks before is less likely to freak out over it. No guarantees of course, but some likelihood.

I saw this all the time with rookies in college athletics. You’d get some hotshot high school guy coming in thinking he’s tough. Then he gets hit by an upperclassman. And he’s on the ground thinking he’s dying. By their second season, they’ve outgrown a lot of that.

Or you’d have the hotshot freshman thinking he’s tough. He’s had his share of bumps and bruises. Then he sprains an ankle. I evaluate it and tell him it’s a sprain, put some compression on it, give him some ice, and maybe one crutch. Then he walks into the training room the next day in a walking boot with a note from a physician saying he’s got a sprained ankle and is out for 6-8 weeks. And the upperclassmen laugh and shake their heads and mutter “stupid rookie.” Then they do the same next season. The problem isn’t they’ve never been hurt before, the problem is they’ve never actually been injured.

MA is the same way. Get hit bare knuckle in the stomach your first time, and you’re on the ground, clutching your stomach and can barely breathe. After a few times you realize how much you can actually take and keep going. You develop this, I don’t know, pride? You get sick of peeling yourself off the floor. And you develop a mental toughness that makes you keep going.

Or you quit and tell your friends the dojo wasn’t tough enough or realistic enough, or you didn’t have time anymore

Wrestling taught me to suck it up and keep working towards a pin. Bare knuckle karate reinforced the concept of keep going. Now that I’m 41, I don’t need that lesson anymore

 

[Kababayan]

One factor is a person's natural fight or flight tendency. A person may not know if they are a fighter or a flighter until they are in a situation (hopefully never.)

 

[Rayrob]

I’ve been in more “situations” than was really good for me and I have found righteous indignation all the motivation I need, lol.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Paul_D]

and extra 50 pounds will do.

£50, sounds expensive

 

[Gerry Seymour]

£50, sounds expensive

If it'll get some big bloke's knee off me, I'll pay.

 

[Danny T]

I saw this all the time with rookies in college athletics. You’d get some hotshot high school guy coming in thinking he’s tough. Then he gets hit by an upperclassman. And he’s on the ground thinking he’s dying. By their second season, they’ve outgrown a lot of that.

Or you’d have the hotshot freshman thinking he’s tough. He’s had his share of bumps and bruises. Then he sprains an ankle. I evaluate it and tell him it’s a sprain, put some compression on it, give him some ice, and maybe one crutch. Then he walks into the training room the next day in a walking boot with a note from a physician saying he’s got a sprained ankle and is out for 6-8 weeks. And the upperclassmen laugh and shake their heads and mutter “stupid rookie.” Then they do the same next season. The problem isn’t they’ve never been hurt before, the problem is they’ve never actually been injured.

MA is the same way. Get hit bare knuckle in the stomach your first time, and you’re on the ground, clutching your stomach and can barely breathe. After a few times you realize how much you can actually take and keep going. You develop this, I don’t know, pride? You get sick of peeling yourself off the floor. And you develop a mental toughness that makes you keep going.

Or you quit and tell your friends the dojo wasn’t tough enough or realistic enough, or you didn’t have time anymore

Wrestling taught me to suck it up and keep working towards a pin. Bare knuckle karate reinforced the concept of keep going. Now that I’m 41, I don’t need that lesson anymore

Yeap...I say it often. Many don' know the difference between being uncomfortable and being in pain.

 

[Isaiah90]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

Yes there is a combination here, but what carries the most weight in your opinion?

It's the self defense system for these reasons.

1. Fighting vs. attacking - Most schools teach students how to fight rather than defend against attacks. They're not really seeing what their enemies are doing. They're just imagining what they suspect they'd do. There's a difference between actual fighting and self defense. Fighting is engaging in mutual combat. Attacking is when someone hurts you without consent. It's more aggressive and without rules. You can learn, practice, hone your punching or kicking skills. It won't do you any good if you don't take measures to see an attack coming. As soon as you get hit the first time, you're going to get hit the second time then the third time and the fourth time. You're going to keep getting hit until either you're incapacitated or somehow manage to create distance and defend yourself.

2. Realistic vs. unrealistic training - The problem with most systems is they don't train realistically. They give off the impression that you're going to be the one who survives a violent confrontation and your attacker is going to submit to your will. That's fantasy. The reality is no attacker is going to simply let you do some flashy technique. You'll be dealing with a living, breathing person who can fight back. Attackers come in all shapes and sizes. Some are very aggressive and others are more strategic. It's almost impossible to have a technique or training method that's going to solve all of your problems in self defense. Think of all the variables in combat and compare that to martial arts training. You're training to deal with one specific variable like a straight punch and ignoring all the others.

3. Incomplete training - The other major issue with most systems is the incomplete training. The focus is mainly on hand-to-hand combat, melee weapons, multiple attackers maybe, list goes on. That's not effective self defense. True self defense gives you the skills to foresee or prevent conflict and end it as quickly as possible. You should have skills in verbal self defense, verbal de-escalation, conflict resolution, situational awareness, situational assessment, hand to hand combat, all kinds of weapons, multiple attackers, legal self defense, list goes on.

The wrong systems instill the wrong mindset and training in it's practitioners. Combat is not just about punching or kicking. That's why i don't like self defense nowadays. It's become a sport rather than a method of self-preservation and survival.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It's the self defense system for these reasons.

1. Fighting vs. attacking - Most schools teach students how to fight rather than defend against attacks. They're not really seeing what their enemies are doing. They're just imagining what they suspect they'd do. There's a difference between actual fighting and self defense. Fighting is engaging in mutual combat. Attacking is when someone hurts you without consent. It's more aggressive and without rules. You can learn, practice, hone your punching or kicking skills. It won't do you any good if you don't take measures to see an attack coming. As soon as you get hit the first time, you're going to get hit the second time then the third time and the fourth time. You're going to keep getting hit until either you're incapacitated or somehow manage to create distance and defend yourself.

2. Realistic vs. unrealistic training - The problem with most systems is they don't train realistically. They give off the impression that you're going to be the one who survives a violent confrontation and your attacker is going to submit to your will. That's fantasy. The reality is no attacker is going to simply let you do some flashy technique. You'll be dealing with a living, breathing person who can fight back. Attackers come in all shapes and sizes. Some are very aggressive and others are more strategic. It's almost impossible to have a technique or training method that's going to solve all of your problems in self defense. Think of all the variables in combat and compare that to martial arts training. You're training to deal with one specific variable like a straight punch and ignoring all the others.

3. Incomplete training - The other major issue with most systems is the incomplete training. The focus is mainly on hand-to-hand combat, melee weapons, multiple attackers maybe, list goes on. That's not effective self defense. True self defense gives you the skills to foresee or prevent conflict and end it as quickly as possible. You should have skills in verbal self defense, verbal de-escalation, conflict resolution, situational awareness, situational assessment, hand to hand combat, all kinds of weapons, multiple attackers, legal self defense, list goes on.

The wrong systems instill the wrong mindset and training in it's practitioners. Combat is not just about punching or kicking. That's why i don't like self defense nowadays. It's become a sport rather than a method of self-preservation and survival.

Its very impressive to me that you know what most systems that exist do. I dont think i even know what most schools in my main style do. Or even the namea of most of the kenpo/kempo schools, never mind their systems. That must have taken you a lot of research and study.