The 3 main empty hand forms

[Xue Sheng]

I’m getting the impression that the 3 main forms exist for different reasons; Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Ji. Heard a Wing Chun Sifu from Canada say something about power being more of a concern in Biu Ji than the other forms

I only know Siu Nim Tau, and not knowing the other 2 forms I could be very wrong, Siu Nim Tau seems more for teaching structure, relaxation and (remember I am still a Taijiquan guy) internal.

As for the other 2, from what I am reading, Chum Kiu is more about movement and bridging the gap, Biu Ji sounds to be more about power, various strikes and kicks.

Am I on the right track here?

 

[wckf92]

I’m getting the impression that the 3 main forms exist for different reasons; Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Ji. Heard a Wing Chun Sifu from Canada say something about power being more of a concern in Biu Ji than the other forms

I only know Siu Nim Tau, and not knowing the other 2 forms I could be very wrong, Siu Nim Tau seems more for teaching structure, relaxation and (remember I am still a Taijiquan guy) internal.

As for the other 2, from what I am reading, Chum Kiu is more about movement and bridging the gap, Biu Ji sounds to be more about power, various strikes and kicks.

Am I on the right track here?

I think this would vary wildly from lineage to lineage. I look forward to reading other thoughts on this topic.

As for my own views on wing chun forms...they are ALL just letters in ones WC alphabet. So, IMO, one has to learn all their ABC's from SLT/CK/BJ/Jong/Pole/Knives.

 

[APL76]

For the way I was taught the breakdown goes roughly something like:

SLT: Stance, structure, strength, relaxation, forwards force and correct alignment of the arms in relation to the stance/centerline, basic coordination.

CK: Stance extended to mobility through turning and stepping, coordination of the body and arms, power generation from the hips through turning, slightly more complex coordination, going from long range to short.

BJ: Stance still with turning but also with the circling leg added as well as a few extra bits and pieces of footwork, close range stuff, some stuff for recovery when you have been compromised, more complex coordination, short range to long.

WD: Combination of the other three forms particularly unifying the stance/footwork that is compartmentalized in the first three forms, striking, conditioning of the arms, refinement of ranging, refinement of precision in striking.

I’ve probably left stuff out but that’s basically the way we see it. Oh, and through all of them you gather a collection of bits and pieces, dare I say it techniques.

 

[Danny T]

I opine that one's perspective of the system will be predicated on one's depth of knowledge of the system.
That of course will be based for a large part on your instructor's knowledge and if that knowledge has been imparted on to you. Also how much exploration has one done in the course of learning the system. In my experience most have learned the whole system or have only a cursory view.
WC is a system for learning how to use your body and each part of the system builds upon itself. Different footwork, stances, ranges, body weight distribution, etc. Though compartmentalized for learning all are to come together as a whole package unique to each individual in expression of their understandings. Within the journey of learning the system one experiences a multitude of technique examples to gain an understanding of as to how the structures, positionings, movements, etc. can be applied using the principles and concepts of the system.

 

[KPM]

Hi Guys! I haven't checked in here in a LONG time! Do the moderators still ban people at the drop of a hat??

Anyway, this thread caught my eye, and I might have a little bit to contribute.

I like to look at this topic in two ways, which are essentially related. The first idea is thinking of it as learning structure, the second is to think of it as learning how to deal with an opponent.

SLT: This is all about "building the structure." You are learning all the lines and angles and a good stance/structure for the foundation of what is going to come. This is why is it performed without footwork and with remaining facing directly forward. Which leads to the second approach....you are learned the "facing" principle....you want to be "square on" or "Chui Ying" with the opponent whenever possible while keeping him "Bai Ying" or "off facing". So that you have the advantage.

CK: This is all about "moving the structure" or "powering the structure." Now you take what you built in SLT and learn how to make good structure move, and movement involves generating dynamic power, so they are related. SLT essentially assumes you are at a distance where you can...or have...engaged the opponent. CK assumes you are at a distance where you must move to engage the opponent....."seeking the bridge." Also implicit here is dealing with a moving opponent. With SLT you have "Chiu Ying", with CK you have to establish "Chiu Ying." Learning how to generate power goes hand in hand with learning how to move your structure.

BG: This has been described as "emergency techniques." This has confused people, and used to confuse me! This form is all about recovering from a bad position. It assumes they YOU are the one that is in "Bai Ying"....your opponent has managed to put you in a disadvantage position where you are not facing him squarely. So the form contains methods to recover from a bad position and regain "Chiu Ying." Typically, when you have been put in a bad position, your good structure is broken. You have been forced to over-turn, to bend at the waist, to step improperly, etc. So this form could also be seen as recovering good structure.

Wooden Dummy: This form is somewhat "multi-purpose." The first part of the form could be seen as "testing your structure." You've learned good structure and how to move it and generate power in the SLT & CK forms. Then the dummy acts somewhat like a "protractor" to help you check your lines and angles. The dummy doesn't move, so you have to move around it and get used to maintaining good structure while applying force against a resistance. The 2nd part of the form, like the BG form, contains recovery methods....how to recover from a bad position or restore good structure and facing when it is lost.

That's my understanding, for better or worse.

 

[ShortBridge]

I agree with most of what has been said above.

Personally, I don't really buy into claims that Biu Jee is either "emergency techniques" or "deadly, secret techniques", at least I can't quite manage to see it that way. As for "power", I'd be more inclined to say "energy transmission", but honesty, I work on that in all of the forms.

What I do think is that Wing Chun starts out very restrictive and becomes less so as you go. SLT exists in a pretty confined box, you don't move your feet and movements are almost entirely on the obvious and limited concept of center. That starts to change or expand a bit in Chum Kiu and continues on from there. I don't claim to be a Biu Jee expert, though I've been doing it for about 10 years, I think it is either more meaningful than I understand or perhaps less profound than people claim for it to be.

When I started working with the knives, Biu Jee made more sense to me. When I learned more White Crane forms, Biu Jee started making a bit more sense to me. Someone I respect once opined the Biu Jee was essentially a beginner Crane form, which I can kind of see.

A whole bunch of people know Wing Chun via Siu Lim Tao and a lot of what are attributed as limitations of Wing Chun are related to that. What I think about teaching students is SLT is about learning the alphabet (as @wckf92 said) and teaching people to follow the movement rules of the system. Everything beyond SLT both continues developing those rules, but also starts inviting less restrictive interpretations of those concepts and rules. In the end, we have to move and adapt, everything doesn't happen neatly in front of us.

 

[APL76]

I agree with most of what has been said above.

Personally, I don't really buy into claims that Biu Jee is either "emergency techniques" or "deadly, secret techniques",

Totally agree. I feel that to see Biu Jee as emergency techniques is to miss most of what the form is about. There are techniques in there that allow you to regain your centreline but in my opinion that's only a small portion of what the form is for. And as for deadly secret techniques......... certainly some that are deadly, if you train at them (my sifu once told me about watching the sons of a fairly big name Wing Chun guy in China practicing their Biu Sao at full power into a brick wall for example. That sort of ability would be lethal) but nothing that is secret. Never understood the whole Biu Jee is just for emergencies stuff.

 

[KPM]

Biu Gee for "emergency techniques." The form is about recovering from a "Bai Ying" position. The opponent has put you at a disadvantage by making you turn, fold, cross your arms, etc. The form is about recovering from that position. It isn't about "super deadly secret" techniques at all! They used to say "Biu Gee does not go out the door" (shouldn't be shown to others), not because it is so secret and deadly, but because it demonstrates how a Wing Chun guy can be put in a bad position! It has also been said that you learn Biu Gee and hope to never have to use it. In other words....you hope that you are good enough that you never find yourself in the positions that Biu Gee is teaching you to get out of! Most of what you need for essential self-defense is in the SLT and CK forms. This is why Ip Man is reported to have said that if any of his CK level students lost a fight he would be surprised! The Biu Gee form was also said by Wong Shun Leung to be "open-ended".....meaning that if situations or positions emerged (as fighting approaches changed) that a Wing Chun guy would need to learn to get out of...the form could be added to. So it really isn't super secret, or deadly, or complicated. The motions look weird because they violate typical Wing Chun rules....and that's because you don't start from a typical Wing Chun position! If you start looking at it that way, it begins to make more sense. Just take a particular move from Biu Gee and examine it in the context of a normal or typical Wing Chun position.....usually there will be something from the other forms that will work better....for that "normal" position or situation. Because its not the case that SLT & CK contain the "basic" techniques" and BG contains the "advanced" techniques. BG is all about how to recover from a bad position.

 

[ShortBridge]

I mostly agree with you. I feel like there is quite a bit in the form that naturally fits into or extends what was in the system up to that point. I am ... let's say "private" rather than "secretive" ... about it because students who are still trying to learn to live in that beginner/intermediate Wing Chun box might be confused by what appears to be contrary positions.

But, I stop short of - 100% recovery/emergency/should-never-happen thinking on it. The real world can be chaotic and I don't think it's realistic to expect life to happen on an x/y axis. Advanced students learning to deal with more dynamic positioning is a key part of having a fully capable system. This form is part of that solution.

In general, I look at the entire system as starting out very restrictive and opening up as you go. Viewing the system that way applies context to the forms for me. In fairness, I'm not getting that from some reputable legend who set at the right hand of Yip Man or Leung Jan or someone. It's just my take on things at this point, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[wckf92]

Food for thought: why would the founders put the "oh crap" stuff so far down the rabbit hole? The BJ form is (for most) generally several years into their WC journey. Why wait for years to finally be taught ..."ok...so here is what you do when your having a bad day". LOL
I was not taught to view BJ as a super secret / deadly / etc form. I only read about that stuff in books and online.
Anyway... I guess I'll never understand why some say "BJ is all about how to recover from a bad position". It just doesn't make sense to me. But then again, I still have much to learn...

 

[ShortBridge]

Food for thought: why would the founders put the "oh crap" stuff so far down the rabbit hole? The BJ form is (for most) generally several years into their WC journey. Why wait for years to finally be taught ..."ok...so here is what you do when your having a bad day". LOL
I was not taught to view BJ as a super secret / deadly / etc form. I only read about that stuff in books and online.
Anyway... I guess I'll never understand why some say "BJ is all about how to recover from a bad position". It just doesn't make sense to me. But then again, I still have much to learn...

Yeah, you and I see things the same way, most of the time. I will say that we collectively tend to try to understand something Chinese through our western lenses. Most Chinese and Japanese martial arts don't seem to be concerned about the amount of time it will take someone to be proficient. Wing Chun is way less complicated and more straightforward than almost any of them, but I'm not sure it is really a traditional Chinese thing to teach people to fight quickly. There's the "hold horse stance for a year before you really start training" kind of mentality that I think there is evidence for in the structure of most systems. We have less of that, but I don't totally discount it.

 

[wckf92]

@ShortBridge this discussion reminds me of how some lineages (and/or "original" wing chun) are reported to have one long form vs the 3 forms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In another thread, someone asked how to use Bong Shou to deal with a strong contact. This make me think, when your arm contact your opponent's arm, if you feel that the incoming force is too strong, do you

- borrow that force,
- spin your arm, and
- lead your opponent into the emptiness?

In all 3 WC forms, which move from which form that you can use it to develop this "un-sticky" skill?

 

[wckf92]

In another thread, someone asked how to use Bong Shou to deal with a strong contact. This make me think, when your arm contact your opponent's arm, if you feel that the incoming force is too strong, do you

- borrow that force,
- spin your arm, and
- lead your opponent into the emptiness?

In all 3 WC forms, which move from which form that you can use it to develop this "un-sticky" skill?

Yes

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes

In order to be able to "un-sticky" the arm contact, you need to train how to move your arms in circle. Among all 3 WC forms, which move can help on this training?

For example, if your opponent uses a back fist (try to establish an arm contact), when he throws a right back fist, if you throw a right hook, your right hook will make his right back fist to hit into the thin air.

You should make yourself to be as

- heavy as a mountain (arm press against arm).
- light as a feather (your opponent can't touch your arm).

 

[wckf92]

@Kung Fu Wang the idea of circling is first introduced in SLT.

 

[APL76]

Biu Gee for "emergency techniques." The form is about recovering from a "Bai Ying" position. The opponent has put you at a disadvantage by making you turn, fold, cross your arms, etc. The form is about recovering from that position. It isn't about "super deadly secret" techniques at all! They used to say "Biu Gee does not go out the door" (shouldn't be shown to others), not because it is so secret and deadly, but because it demonstrates how a Wing Chun guy can be put in a bad position! It has also been said that you learn Biu Gee and hope to never have to use it. In other words....you hope that you are good enough that you never find yourself in the positions that Biu Gee is teaching you to get out of! Most of what you need for essential self-defense is in the SLT and CK forms. This is why Ip Man is reported to have said that if any of his CK level students lost a fight he would be surprised! The Biu Gee form was also said by Wong Shun Leung to be "open-ended".....meaning that if situations or positions emerged (as fighting approaches changed) that a Wing Chun guy would need to learn to get out of...the form could be added to. So it really isn't super secret, or deadly, or complicated. The motions look weird because they violate typical Wing Chun rules....and that's because you don't start from a typical Wing Chun position! If you start looking at it that way, it begins to make more sense. Just take a particular move from Biu Gee and examine it in the context of a normal or typical Wing Chun position.....usually there will be something from the other forms that will work better....for that "normal" position or situation. Because its not the case that SLT & CK contain the "basic" techniques" and BG contains the "advanced" techniques. BG is all about how to recover from a bad position.

Oh I know all that; I just think its a very Yip Man Wing Chun centric way to look at it. I read most of that stuff in a book by Yip Chun just after I started learning wing chun, and knowing that Yip Chun was one of my sifu's sifus I asked him about it and he said something to the effect of "no, why would Biu Jee only be for that". It wasn't until I learned a bunch of Guangzhou Wing Chun that I started to see why my sifu had the attitude he did. From that perspective you can't really do Wing Chun as an wholistic system as intended without the Biu Jee. So far from hoping never to need it, or it being about recovery from a compromising position (which is in there) it is an integral part of the system as a whole. You can't even do the complete flanking movement fully without the heun bo from Biu Jee and you don't learn that stuff in any other form; its then unified in the wooden dummy). That's not to say that you can't use your Wing Chun until you have learned the Biu Jee, you can, just not to its full potential.

And what's more, I found once I learned Guangzhou Wing Chun, much of Yip Man Wing Chun fit together better, so I suspect that its not just a different view of Wing Chun done in two different systems, I suspect that perhaps when Yip Man changed it going to Hong Kong, for whatever reason, he changed that interpretation of it too. No doubt that would be an unpopular opinion among Yip Man Wing Chun people, but its the conclusion I have come to anyway.

 

[Callen]

Anyway... I guess I'll never understand why some say "BJ is all about how to recover from a bad position". It just doesn't make sense to me. But then again, I still have much to learn...

Yeah like you said earlier, this is another example where lineage plays a big part in how the forms and system as a whole are interpreted. It comes down to how the individual understands the purpose of each shape, and how those ideas are reinforced in their training.

As an example, my lineage utilizes the shapes and actions found in Biu Jee as recovery (emergency) positions. We also train, re-visit and reinforce those same positions/ideas throughout the entire system. Gaan can be a recovery action from a bad position, elbow control, Fuk, replacing the hand to punch etc... all of those can be recovery actions. I can even give examples of recovery actions in SNT/SLT. IMO, the important question to ask ourselves here is, what is "recovery" and how does it influence the way we train/learn?

It really depends on the lens you're looking through, which attributes you're training for, and the way certain lineages interpret how the entire system is to be used.

 

[Nobody Important]

Food for thought: why would the founders put the "oh crap" stuff so far down the rabbit hole? The BJ form is (for most) generally several years into their WC journey. Why wait for years to finally be taught ..."ok...so here is what you do when your having a bad day". LOL
I was not taught to view BJ as a super secret / deadly / etc form. I only read about that stuff in books and online.
Anyway... I guess I'll never understand why some say "BJ is all about how to recover from a bad position". It just doesn't make sense to me. But then again, I still have much to learn...

Its a good question. In my lineage Biao Zhi concepts are taught early on as a way to "right the ship". The reasoning is that beginners will eventually fail and will need a pathway to get back on track. In my branch we view the 3 forms as Short Range (Xiao Lian Tou), Middle Range (Chen Qiao) and Long Range (Biao Zhi). Conceptually it is easier to learn how to go from Long Range to Short Range, as it is easier to subtract from movement than it is to add to it. Also, learning power generation is more effective when going from long to short, the nuances of the mechanics are easier to digest then later refine. Anyways, that's my two cents.

 

[hunschuld]

Wing chun changed a lot when people started teaching to the public as a means of actual survival and not just Yip Man. YKS students said that they don't know where Sum Nung got his WC but it wasn't what YKS taught. . There are different version of Cho Style out there.. In trying to build themselves up many found it convenient to take swipes at others as not having the real deal etc. How often in NG Chung So credited yet almost everyone trained with him if they lived in Fatshan. Certainly YKS,YM and YC and Jui Chao.

The claim of secrets was to justify more $. The forms were just an offshoot of the desire to break up and simplify teaching. It was originally 1 form with some extended technique ideas and variations. Bui Jee was never means to be secret or super deadly or what ever just a logical progression from 1 main idea to another and at the end you end up back at SLT as everything is in the first form

You can use all of BJ without having your structre broken or the need to recover etc. You can recover from any situation just using SLT or Chum Kui.

The only secrets were how to properly use your body and short fast footwork. Those are only secrets because they were either purposely omitted from some teaching or because it is hard to learn so some opted for quicker easier to learn methods that worked well enough not because they were ever indented to be secret..