tension movements in forms

[bluewaveschool]

Does anyone else have tension movements in any of their forms? While I do the same forms as ITF, Earl informed me that tension movements are NOT something that the ITF does. Sine wave yes, tension no. So where did the founder of my school possibly pick this up?

 

[dancingalone]

I imagine it might be an artifact carried over from the karate forms. Go to Youtube and watch performances of Heian Yondan. It will look oddly familiar to you as someone who practices the Choi forms. The opening 'blocks' are performed with dynamic tension by most Japanese karate-ka who practice the Heian versions of the Pinan kata.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I imagine it might be an artifact carried over from the karate forms. Go to Youtube and watch performances of Heian Yondan. It will look oddly familiar to you as someone who practices the Choi forms. The opening 'blocks' are performed with dynamic tension by most Japanese karate-ka who practice the Heian versions of the Pinan kata.

The tension movements are the opening punch of Yul-Gok (plus the first punch of the second set of three), both pressing blocks in Joong-Gun, and the opening palm strike of Hwa-Rang.

 

[leadleg]

There is tension breathing in KKW forms, both palgwe's,taegueks and the bb forms.
I believe the english spelling is Ho hope tu jul, "tension breathing"

 

[ralphmcpherson]

There are some tension moves in palgwe 8 from memorey. Also in keum gang i think.

 

[dancingalone]

All of you who practice this... why do you feel you have them in your forms, considering their duration is very short? It's not like practicing the Sanchin kata in Goju-ryu which is performed entirely under tension making the physical conditioning aspect obvious.

No right or wrong answer obviously. I am merely curious where you are coming from.

 

[dancingalone]

The tension movements are the opening punch of Yul-Gok (plus the first punch of the second set of three), both pressing blocks in Joong-Gun, and the opening palm strike of Hwa-Rang.

Yup. I learned them the same way. Wish I knew where my copies of the Jhoon Rhee books to these forms are, otherwise I would look them up to see if that's the way he had them in his texts.

 

[puunui]

At this stage of the journey, I simply breathe naturally and don't emphasize the tension parts of the Kukkiwon poomsae. I do my poomsae in a relaxed fashion; I don't visualize opponents and don't make believe that I am killing them with my moves. Poomsae for me at this point is about the health benefits, that life giving taekwondo or taekwondo for long life thing that GM LEE Won Kuk's calligraphy states.

But that is just me in my own state of non-compliance.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Yup. I learned them the same way. Wish I knew where my copies of the Jhoon Rhee books to these forms are, otherwise I would look them up to see if that's the way he had them in his texts.

Hee Il Cho's books have the movements for Yul-Gok and Hwa-Rang, but oddly not the pressing blocks

 

[leadleg]

KKW tension breathing is not correlated into muscle tension in the movement, but more of a deliberate inhale and exhale.

 

[Earl Weiss]

General Choi's Chang Hon / Chon Ji forms have no tension movements.

Any texts showing tension movements in this form set either:
1. Are carrying something over from the instructor's prior training which don't belong;or
2. Are an intentional change by the instructor; or
3. Are a screwup buy the instructor; or
4. Are some sort of author / editing error.

The only way to know for sure would be to ask the author.

 

[rlobrecht]

We also perform those forms, in not quite the ITF way. We perform those movements slowly, but not really with tension.

Rick

 

[dancingalone]

KKW tension breathing is not correlated into muscle tension in the movement, but more of a deliberate inhale and exhale.

I've just mentioned this in passing with another KKW BB. He stated there is indeed dynamic muscular tension in the forms, at least the way he was taught. The example given was the diamond block in Keumgang. He is Chung Do Kwan lineage.

<shrugs>

I do not know what the official KKW guideline is one this form, but I was able to google and find references to performing the diamond block slowly and with force, which fits the basic description of dynamic tension. Sounds like there is variance on this topic as well.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've just mentioned this in passing with another KKW BB. He stated there is indeed dynamic muscular tension in the forms, at least the way he was taught. The example given was the diamond block in Keumgang. He is Chung Do Kwan lineage.

<shrugs>

I do not know what the official KKW guideline is one this form, but I was able to google and find references to performing the diamond block slowly and with force, which fits the basic description of dynamic tension. Sounds like there is variance on this topic as well.

I cannot speak to Chang Hon tuls, but the Tageuk and yudanja pumse all represent something specific and some of the techniques performed in the pumse are designed to express that meaning.

Keumgang means diamond, is a mountain in Korea, and is also the Keumgang warrior named by Buddha, and represents hardness, beauty and pondering, and the techniques are meant to express those attributes. Tageuk chiljang also has a point of breathing with some degree of slow tension (beojumeok; wrapped fist), and represents the mountain as well.

As leadleg stated, these points are correlated more to focused breathing than to muscular tension.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

As leadleg stated, these points are correlated more to focused breathing than to muscular tension.

Is there a distinction between the two? If you practice dynamic tension on at least a 3-count, you must inhale and exhale at least once each at a natural breathing rate. I'm assuming Keumgang indeed is to be performed at natural breathing speed, unless you are striving for an entirely different physiological reaction such as in karate's Sanchin kata, where the breath is held deliberately at times and then expelled forcibly?

Are you are saying the muscles are not supposed to be tightened at all?

 

[d1jinx]

JITAE has a combination of slow tension follow by fast movements. This is repeated a few times. Kind-of through me off the first time I learned it.

 

[leadleg]

Is there a distinction between the two? If you practice dynamic tension on at least a 3-count, you must inhale and exhale at least once each at a natural breathing rate. I'm assuming Keumgang indeed is to be performed at natural breathing speed, unless you are striving for an entirely different physiological reaction such as in karate's Sanchin kata, where the breath is held deliberately at times and then expelled forcibly?

Are you are saying the muscles are not supposed to be tightened at all?

This is eronious on my part,too quick to reply(i"m Learning) what I meant to convey was the tension breathing in kkw forms is more of a deliberate breath than tension in the muscles,not to say there is NO tension in the movement.
When I learned bal sek the tension there was throughout the whole body almost to the point of shaking,the inhale and exhale,so hard that the sound of breathing was heard,
very loud.
KKW on the other hand no sound is heard and the muscle tension is on the exhale,but not near the point of shaking, more of a deliberate breath.
Hard to write about I am sure will be hard to understand,sorry.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is there a distinction between the two? If you practice dynamic tension on at least a 3-count, you must inhale and exhale at least once each at a natural breathing rate. I'm assuming Keumgang indeed is to be performed at natural breathing speed, unless you are striving for an entirely different physiological reaction such as in karate's Sanchin kata, where the breath is held deliberately at times and then expelled forcibly?

Are you are saying the muscles are not supposed to be tightened at all?

No; the movements are performed slowly, and there will be some tension as a result. But there is not any paradigm of the body needing to show tension in the way that one of the kata you had mentioned (which was performed shirtless in order to display said tension).

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

No; the movements are performed slowly, and there will be some tension as a result. But there is not any paradigm of the body needing to show tension in the way that one of the kata you had mentioned (which was performed shirtless in order to display said tension).

Actually, the appearance itself of tension in Sanchin isn't important. It's the fact that you are tightening the right muscle groups in the correct combination and spacing/intensity that the teacher is looking for with his eyes and hands. It may be that a very slender person may not display visibly the tightening - I've run into this before with a rail thin student - and then the disrobing becomes less important.

Not sure if an emphasis on visual confirmation of tension is what you meant to convey, but I just wanted to clarify this for anyone else reading.

But my question has been answered between you and leadleg. Sounds like there is supposed to be a degree of dynamic tension performed, but you are more concerned with the breathing half of it than the muscular intricacies.

 

[leadleg]

I was told ,long ago and this is my interpretation of that conversation, that it is more of a pause,grounding oneself, recovering energy,focus,before resuming a powerful attack.