Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu

[Aiki Lee]

Yeah I know it doesn't look exactly like tosui, but its the closest i could imagine. My swordsmanship is more limited as the only kamae I know are dai jodan, jodan, hasso, ichi, kasumi, kocho, ryusui, tosui, seigan, chudan, gedan, and chizure no gedan. Many of these other kamae you and Daniel have named I'm unfamiliar with, but then again different systems have different kamae and some even have different names for similar kamae in other systems. Right?

All this talk about Jigen ryu is very interesting. Did you ever train in the form, Chris?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's okay; I'm unfamiliar with ichi, kocho, ryusui, tosui, and chizure no gedan, at least by those names. In Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, what you call kasumi is called shaki. What in kendo is called waki is called kage tonbo in Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu.

I suspect that the kamae that we have discussed would look familiar to you, even if the nomenclature is not.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ah, cool. Thanks, Daniel! I was picturing something with the kissaki pointing back, rather than to the side, so didn't see how that was achieved on the left without crossing hands.

Well, it's pointing down and back toward the left foot. The reason that the hands do not cross is because the right hand is holding the tsuka from the underside.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah I know it doesn't look exactly like tosui, but its the closest i could imagine. My swordsmanship is more limited as the only kamae I know are dai jodan, jodan, hasso, ichi, kasumi, kocho, ryusui, tosui, seigan, chudan, gedan, and chizure no gedan. Many of these other kamae you and Daniel have named I'm unfamiliar with, but then again different systems have different kamae and some even have different names for similar kamae in other systems. Right?

Yeah, pretty much.

All this talk about Jigen ryu is very interesting. Did you ever train in the form, Chris?

Ha, I can't train in everything, you know...

That's okay; I'm unfamiliar with ichi, kocho, ryusui, tosui, and chizure no gedan, at least by those names. In Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, what you call kasumi is called shaki. What in kendo is called waki is called kage tonbo in Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu.

I suspect that the kamae that we have discussed would look familiar to you, even if the nomenclature is not.

Some would look familiar to him, but some would have some marked differences to the ones that Himura knows. In essence, though, yeah.

Well, it's pointing down and back toward the left foot. The reason that the hands do not cross is because the right hand is holding the tsuka from the underside.

Yep, cool. Got it now. When you first described it, I had more of a "convential" Waki no Kamae in mind, but with the ha facing upwards.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Ha, I can't train in everything, you know...

I don't know. I'm already working under the theory that you are actually an immortal and have knowledge and experience in every martial art system. Are you sure your name isn't actually Chris Parker mcCloud?

Or possibly Batman?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know. I'm already working under the theory that you are actually an immortal and have knowledge and experience in every martial art system. Are you sure your name isn't actually Chris Parker mcCloud?

Or possibly Batman?

Batman's not immortal. That is me, Dan Al'Ghul, though my immortality is dependent upon my taking a special bath periodically.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Class continues, and I was finaly told last night that they would accept my membership fee. They didn't want me to pay the annual dues until I had been there long enough to know that I wanted to be there and for them to know that I was actually committed to the training.

I'm finding that my biggest challenge is in small details that eight years of kendo have trained me to do differently. Once they are pointed out, however, the adjustment is not difficult. The biggest difference is in the feet and orientation of the torso. In Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, we keep our feet planted on the ground with the heels down for a solid stance, while in kendo, we keep our heels up for mobility. Also, in Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu we turn our bodies at a 45 degree angle as much of the cutting is one handed, while in kendo, we are squared and forward facing.

Loving it more every week.

 

[pgsmith]

Very cool!
It's the little things that will drive you mad, but it's those same little things that I find so fascinating when you finally understand why they are done within the context of the ryu.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Curious. Why is the cutting done with one hand? I assume not all the techniques are done that way, correct?

 

[Chris Parker]

In looking at Daniel's reports of his training (which is making me jealous, really...), I've visited the main hombu website a few times. Some incredibly good information there, but something that really caught my eye, and gives you (Himura) an answer to your question, is this article on some of the technical aspects of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. It starts by explaining about the single handed cutting, and it's reasons in the Ryu.

http://jigenryu.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/some-features-of-tenshinsho-jigen-ryu.html

Seriously, Daniel, everything sounds fantastic for you there. But I will try to shoot myself in the foot here and ask if you've checked with your instructors about giving this information freely over the internet? I know a number of schools where discussion outside the Ryu is, while not necessarily forbidden, is discouraged to the point that it effectively is a dictate that the system isn't discussed if you are a member. I would probably suggest clarifying this with your instructor before giving too many other details out, as I'm personally unsure of the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu's take on the issue.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Seriously, Daniel, everything sounds fantastic for you there. But I will try to shoot myself in the foot here and ask if you've checked with your instructors about giving this information freely over the internet? I know a number of schools where discussion outside the Ryu is, while not necessarily forbidden, is discouraged to the point that it effectively is a dictate that the system isn't discussed if you are a member. I would probably suggest clarifying this with your instructor before giving too many other details out, as I'm personally unsure of the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu's take on the issue.

I haven't talked about it with anyone, and really, the subject hasn't come up. I figure that the headmaster has video of all of what I have learned up on youtube, so anything that I have to say is minimal by comparison. I will ask about it though.

 

[Chris Parker]

Cool. There are systems out there who put out a fair bit of information themselves, but have rules about the membership talking, so it's usually a good idea to check. I haven't heard any issues with Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, but it's better to be safe, neh?

 

[Aiki Lee]

If koryu want to be continued why would they discourage discussing it with non-members? Wouldn't that make it easier to find some interested in studying the system?

 

[Chris Parker]

Look at the Koryu for what they are.... forms of military intelligence and strategy. Giving your methods to other systems and practitioners of other systems isn't the smartest thing. It's the same as expecting the modern military to give all the information about it's weapon systems and military codes. The same mentality still exists to a great degree.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If koryu want to be continued why would they discourage discussing it with non-members? Wouldn't that make it easier to find some interested in studying the system?

What Chris said. Plus, wander over to the TKD board and look at the end result of over-sharing. Not cracking on the art, the practitioners, or the organizations that have worked very hard to spread the art.

But with the spread of the art came a hefty amount of commercialization and the state of many TKD schools is not what the art deserves and there are many who use the art's popularity to bolster income. This has caused the sort of things that are the subject of many of the threads in the TKD section. Threads about things like five year old black belts and the state of USAT.

TKD is not the only art to suffer with the rise of commercialism. But it is probably the one that has suffered the most. No head of a koryu art wants to subject the art that has been entrusted to them to such circumstances.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I can respect that. But if most koryu look down on talking about koryu, how do they attract students? How are potential stdents to learn if the art is right for them?

 

[Chris Parker]

At which point in history? For most of many arts history, they would be restricted to a certain domain, or area, so it would be very much the "local" school for the samurai (or others) in that area. Some would be designated as "Otomo Ryu", which were the "official" schools for a domain, under the authority of a Daimyo, and would then simply have students sent to them. Then you had schools that were spread by Musha Shugyo... either the founder/teacher of the system would travel around, and just teach people as they moved (with some following them, others just learning a bit while the instructor was in town, so to speak), and further still there were schools where the licenced members were expected to go to a new domain (or return to the one they came from) and establish their own line of it there.

If we're looking at the modern period, finding potential students is kind of a catch 22... students are needed in order to continue the tradition, so information needs to be put out, but at the same time, the Ryu needs to be protected, so the information put out is restricted so as to not allow the art to be stolen or misrepresented by those who aren't really qualified. While it has become common for publications, websites, and chat boards (like this) to be used to give information out, the information is still necessarily limited, and the most common way to get some way to get a "feel" for the different Ryu-ha at the various Embu (public demonstrations) that are performed in Japan and elsewhere. Bear in mind, of course, that Embu are not Keiko, and kata may be changed, or only a small portion demonstrated, or similar, so they aren't really the same as the Ryu themselves in many ways.

I'll put it this way: It's similar to a trailer, or a teaser, for a movie. You may see the trailer, and it will give you some idea of what the film may be about, or include, but it's not the same as seeing the film itself. But the more you've seen similar movies, or others in the series, for instance, the more you can get out of the trailer. The big catch, of course, is that you're not seeing the whole film, you're not reading the script, and you're not able to talk directly with the director... and you may never get a chance to see the film at all. But the trailer can attract some people who like the look of what they see, the feeling that is represented (no matter how the kata are changed, the "feel" is always the Ryu), and they may be the right people to be invited into a screening. And, if that goes well, by the end, they get their own copy of the script, and understand what the director was doing with it.

Hmm, maybe that was stretched a bit too far....

 

[jks9199]

You may find this article by Dave Lowry enlightening, if you have questions about why the various koryu are somewhat restrictive in who they let in...

So You Want To Join the Ryu

Yes, I know this is not good from a business perspective. And it isn’t how things are done in most modern budo. And it shouldn’t be. Most modern forms of combative arts have been specifically organised and designed to be available to lots of people. That’s one of their strengths. The koryu are different. Not better. Just different. The overwhelming motivation of all those involved in a koryu, especially at the teaching level, is for the continuance of the ryu. The principal concern is not for the members of the ryu. Of course, as we train together, we develop very strong bonds, very close friendships. But the ryu has to come first. If I had a member of the ryu in my group who was behaving in an inappropriate way, I would do everything within my power to convince him to change his ways. In the end, however, if I felt he was detrimental to the ryu, I would go about removing him. This seems cold, I know. It has its roots in a variety of feudal Japanese concepts, too deep to go into here. And you may legitimately argue that this isn’t feudal Japan. Good, though obvious point. Doesn’t matter. It’s our ryu. And we enforce the rules. If you are interested in joining, you play by those rules. We don’t have to defend them or explain them to you or anyone else, at least not at this stage. At any rate, if you can see that I’d be willing to toss a member over the side of the boat if I thought it was necessary for the furtherance of the ryu, you can imagine how little I care about you even being in that boat. You can also imagine how careful others and I tend to be about who we let into that boat in the first place.
Let me try to make this clear, from another perspective. A lot of times, for instance, we’ll hear or read about how great this or that combative art might be for young people, how it can instill discipline and self-confidence; respect for authority, and so on. These are major selling points for a lot of those arts. And all of them may be true. But none of them is a concern in koryu. We don’t care what they’ll do for you, or for young people in general, or anyone else. We care what you will do for them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I went to class again last night and am now practicing all seven of the nukeuchi hokei. I also learned two new hokei, for a total of three (there are hokei and nukeuchi hoke). I love the amount of fine detail that I am learning and that I get constistent and continuous, though not gratuitous, feedback. The small details, just as they do in kendo, really make all the difference.

Needless to say, I am greatly enjoying the classes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In looking at Daniel's reports of his training (which is making me jealous, really...), I've visited the main hombu website a few times. Some incredibly good information there, but something that really caught my eye, and gives you (Himura) an answer to your question, is this article on some of the technical aspects of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu. It starts by explaining about the single handed cutting, and it's reasons in the Ryu.

http://jigenryu.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/some-features-of-tenshinsho-jigen-ryu.html

Seriously, Daniel, everything sounds fantastic for you there. But I will try to shoot myself in the foot here and ask if you've checked with your instructors about giving this information freely over the internet? I know a number of schools where discussion outside the Ryu is, while not necessarily forbidden, is discouraged to the point that it effectively is a dictate that the system isn't discussed if you are a member. I would probably suggest clarifying this with your instructor before giving too many other details out, as I'm personally unsure of the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu's take on the issue.

I asked sensei the other night and he said that there is no official policy, but to please keep in mind that this is a five hundred plus year old ryu and to treat it as such. I told him the nature of this thread and he said that it sounded fine to him, but essentially, if I find myself asking, 'should I post this?' then I probably shouldn't.

Class has been going very well and I continue to get feedback on minor details that are not an issue in kendo but make all the difference in battojutsu. Its really fun being a white belt (figuratively speaking) again!