Techniques on both sides?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Brother John
Can I have a gold star, Pleeeeeeze..... Your Brother (Plays well with others) John

Well, if it wasn't for that nasty instructor of yours..........:rofl: J/K,
tell Roger hi for me.

and yes you deserve a gold star also ....... you have had similar discussions and kept your head well. I'm proud of you guys for that.

:asian:

 

[Ronin]

Didnt we talk about this subject before and it became a heated debate? I better get my sparring gear on!!

 

[gman]

I can see practicing on both sides for many reasons but aren't the black belt techniques somewhat extensive and would therefore be fairly complicated? (I wouldn't know 'cause I'm not a black belt.)

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by gman
I can see practicing on both sides for many reasons.

I can too!

Originally posted by gman
Aren't the black belt techniques somewhat extensive and would therefore be fairly complicated?

No, not complicated... nothing in our system is complicated, if it were Mr. Parker said it was constipated ....:LOL:.... but rather sophisticated or simplicity compounded.....

They are somewhat more advanced than the lower ranked material however look at where you are....... Shouldn't you be learning advanced material at the advanced level anyways?



:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Out side of exploring ideas there is no reason to learn a tech on both sides. pick your favorite neutral an fight out of that neutral. Spending valuable training time learning to be a southpaw might be fun and interesting but it is unusefull for your basic combat readiness. What you will find though is that Mr. Parker designed similar techs that resemble eachother but always require the right hand to be dominant. Eventualy your ability to do like ideas on either side will become easier but, once again, learn to fight your fight.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Out side of exploring ideas there is no reason to learn a tech on both sides. pick your favorite neutral an fight out of that neutral. Spending valuable training time learning to be a southpaw might be fun and interesting but it is unusefull for your basic combat readiness. .

What about us South Paws? Should we then not have to learn the base side of the techhnique?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Seig
What about us South Paws? Should we then not have to learn the base side of the techhnique?

As a southpaw, the problems and anomolies associated with learning a "martial art" are the same as you encounter associated with everything else in life. The system is designed for a right handed person, as most things are. . Learning it as it is taught doesn't change the physiology of learning. My left handed students simply learn and are excellent students who are accustomed to a right handed world. If anything, they have a slight learning curve advantage in the beginning by having the opportunity to develop their "weak" side initially. But , ultimately they have no more advantage than a right handed person because of the same anatomical limitations of neuro synaptic pathway dominance.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Doc
As a southpaw, the problems and anomolies associated with learning a "martial art" are the same as you encounter associated with everything else in life. The system is designed for a right handed person, as most things are. . Learning it as it is taught doesn't change the physiology of learning. My left handed students simply learn and are excellent students who are accustomed to a right handed world. If anything, they have a slight learning curve advantage in the beginning by having the opportunity to develop their "weak" side initially. But , ultimately they have no more advantage than a right handed person because of the same anatomical limitations of neuro synaptic pathway dominance.

Agreed!

 

[Brother John]

Hey yall...
Just looking over this fine thread and wondering, COULD those of you that disagree with training on both sides write out the points of your argument????
for instance...
I feel that training a technique on the "off" side is not good (or ill-advised....whatever) because:
1.
2.
3.
4.
etc.

It would help this simpleton understand where you are coming from better...
Humor a brother..........
Your Brother
John

 

[clapping_tiger]

I know you brought this thread up again to get more reasons from people who disagree with doing their techniques on both sides, but I just want to put my 2 cents worth in on why you should practice your techniques on both sides.

Even though there are obvious reasons for doing so, such as developing your weaker side, I feel that one of the key benefits is that it helps you learn the techniques, and movements more in depth. You really have to break down the technique, and think about what you are doing. The end result is a better understanding of how to flow, and put all the basics together (which all the techniques are, basics in a set order). This allows you to free your movements and blend and borrow your techniques. I know there are some people out there who might think that techniques on both sides has nothing to do with blending techniques and extensions, but if you can do every movement with either side like it was nothing, your body is free to go. And to me, the kenpo techniques are just a teaching tool. They teach you first hand all the principles and theories of motion and such, but do you honestly think that on the street you will do a full technique?? No matter how many times you practice a technique, a person on the street will never react the same. So I feel being able to blend and borrow, switch direction, and revise targets is the ultimate goal.

Did I just babble on and on?? I think I did, and for that I apologize.

-Jason Johnson

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by clapping_tiger
Even though there are obvious reasons for doing so, such as developing your weaker side, I feel that one of the key benefits is that it helps you learn the techniques, and movements more in depth.

Well if you're just studying "motion" I guess that would be true. From our perspective techniques are not about motion but physical principles of interaction. As far as your "weaker" side, that is what symetrical forms are for, not "application techniques."

You really have to break down the technique, and think about what you are doing.

That's fine if you're teaching yourself, which unfortunately many have to do. You can't "DISCOVER" how to make them effective no matter how much you "play" with them.

The end result is a better understanding of how to flow, and put all the basics together (which all the techniques are, basics in a set order). This allows you to free your movements and blend and borrow your techniques.

But it won't teach you how to make them work.

I know there are some people out there who might think that techniques on both sides has nothing to do with blending techniques and extensions,

Guilty as charged.

but if you can do every movement with either side like it was nothing, your body is free to go.

Go where? Without an understanding of HOW to move, you're just "flailing."

And to me, the kenpo techniques are just a teaching tool. They teach you first hand all the principles and theories of motion and such,

Theory yes, principles, no.

but do you honestly think that on the street you will do a full technique??

Not if you have truly learned something.

No matter how many times you practice a technique, a person on the street will never react the same.

Correction! "No matter how many times you practice a "motion" technique, a person on the street will never react the same.

So I feel being able to blend and borrow, switch direction, and revise targets is the ultimate goal.

However if you don't know how, when, what targets to attack; .....

 

[Kenpomachine]

I've recently had a micro breaking of a pectoral fiber and had to swith sides for some techniques, to avoid worsening. Point is: we don't usually train tehcniques both sides but it wasn't so difficult once you know the technique one sided well enough.
If I were to train both sides, it'll take a lot more time to internalize the technique than working it the way it was meant. And then you have those white belts that keep attacking cutching feathers with the right hand to work the other side :rofl:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
And then you have those white belts that keep attacking cutching feathers with the right hand to work the other side :rofl:

Just continue Clutching Feathers as if it were a left hand grab. All you need to do is alter the weapon of the palm heel. I find using the right hand grab better because after I middle knuckle my right hand frictional pulls to the wrist to continue the tech. with B1aH (on the opposite side :uhoh: ); or continue with the raking back knuckle whichever you prefer.

 

[Brother John]

“But it won't teach you how to make them work.”

Mr. Chapel,
seems to me that it would be their teacher that teaches them how to make any technique work, regardless of the side it is worked on. I don’t think he’s discussing how to make techniques work.

“Go where? Without an understanding of HOW to move, you're just "flailing."

I don’t understand where you are coming from Mr. Chapel. Do you think that Mr. Johnson doesn’t have an understanding of how to move before he tries working the tech’s on another side? Are you suggesting that he doesn’t have the “HOW”?

guess I just don't see what you are saying...
Your Brother
John

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Doc
As a southpaw, the problems and anomolies associated with learning a "martial art" are the same as you encounter associated with everything else in life. The system is designed for a right handed person, as most things are. . Learning it as it is taught doesn't change the physiology of learning. My left handed students simply learn and are excellent students who are accustomed to a right handed world. If anything, they have a slight learning curve advantage in the beginning by having the opportunity to develop their "weak" side initially. But , ultimately they have no more advantage than a right handed person because of the same anatomical limitations of neuro synaptic pathway dominance.

Doc,
It was rhetorical question. I have been training since I was a toddler. Through habits and a few serious injuries, I have become 97% ambidextreous. I try and pass the advantages this conveys on to my students.:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Seig
Doc,
It was rhetorical question. I have been training since I was a toddler. Through habits and a few serious injuries, I have become 97% ambidextreous. I try and pass the advantages this conveys on to my students.:asian:

I have several right brain guys who had to grow up in a left brain world. 2 of them are uniform cops. Weird, and you guys right funny too.

 

[clapping_tiger]

Doc,

At this point in my training, I am focused on movement. I test for my Black Belt, on May 31st. I in no way claiming to be at a level of understanding that several people in this forum have, but what did attract me to Kenpo is that there is room for individual ideas and a degree of understanding of what Kenpo is to each person. For my own reasons, at this point, I am not interested in going into the degree of study that you have, maybe in a few more years, I have been training in Kenpo for just over 3 years. My goal right now is to be able to effectively and efficiently defend myself and my loved ones. So an understanding of how my body moves, and how my opponents body moves and reacts to my strikes is my focus right now. I do understand how to move and can do it the same on either side of my body. If a person attacks me from my right or left, from a 90 degree, 45 degree, or 13 degree angle I want to be able to just move and enter at any angle and any side. For example, one of my mini tests required for Black my school, is to be able to effectively defend yourself against 20 consecutive attacks from random angles and random attacks. You need to do this at 100% no errors. If I had to think about which side the next attacks is coming from I would never be able to get past the first 5 attacks, which for this drill 5 people attack 4 times and are constantly moving. When they are set I make a note of what is around me, who is where and which side is in lead, if any. When the drill begins first few attacks are always a technique, but after that it is just reaction, so without being equally effective on each side, you are done after a few attacks.

I know that you may never be attacked by 20 attackers, but it is not out of the realm of reality to be attacked by 2 or 3 people, and if you don’t put them out they may come in again and again from different places to try to get you from some weak spot. If you always practice fighting from a dominant right side, you are quite weak from a left attack.
This is just my thoughts. I am not saying it is a rule, and right for everyone. This is what works for me, and my reasons for training.

As far as teaching yourself, don’t we all to some degree bring something new to the table. We all have taught ourselves to some degree. No matter how good the teacher is we bring in our own style. Isn’t the teacher just the guide to our martial arts training? If what they teach is the only way to do it, we would all be clones of each other in Kenpo. From my understanding, that is not the way Kenpo was supposed to be. That is just my take on it.

-With much respect, Jason Johnson

 

[Kirk]

I asked Sigung LaBounty what he felt about doing techniques on
both sides, this saturday. He said that while there can be benefit from doing techs on both sides, he personally feels that 1) the techniques and forms cover both sides already, and 2) the time spent working on the opposite side can be better spent on something else, and more effectively at that.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by clapping_tiger
Doc,

At this point in my training, I am focused on movement. I test for my Black Belt, on May 31st. I in no way claiming to be at a level of understanding that several people in this forum have, but what did attract me to Kenpo is that there is room for individual ideas and a degree of understanding of what Kenpo is to each person. For my own reasons, at this point, I am not interested in going into the degree of study that you have, maybe in a few more years, I have been training in Kenpo for just over 3 years. My goal right now is to be able to effectively and efficiently defend myself and my loved ones. So an understanding of how my body moves, and how my opponents body moves and reacts to my strikes is my focus right now. I do understand how to move and can do it the same on either side of my body. If a person attacks me from my right or left, from a 90 degree, 45 degree, or 13 degree angle I want to be able to just move and enter at any angle and any side. For example, one of my mini tests required for Black my school, is to be able to effectively defend yourself against 20 consecutive attacks from random angles and random attacks. You need to do this at 100% no errors. If I had to think about which side the next attacks is coming from I would never be able to get past the first 5 attacks, which for this drill 5 people attack 4 times and are constantly moving. When they are set I make a note of what is around me, who is where and which side is in lead, if any. When the drill begins first few attacks are always a technique, but after that it is just reaction, so without being equally effective on each side, you are done after a few attacks.

I know that you may never be attacked by 20 attackers, but it is not out of the realm of reality to be attacked by 2 or 3 people, and if you don’t put them out they may come in again and again from different places to try to get you from some weak spot. If you always practice fighting from a dominant right side, you are quite weak from a left attack.
This is just my thoughts. I am not saying it is a rule, and right for everyone. This is what works for me, and my reasons for training.

As far as teaching yourself, don’t we all to some degree bring something new to the table. We all have taught ourselves to some degree. No matter how good the teacher is we bring in our own style. Isn’t the teacher just the guide to our martial arts training? If what they teach is the only way to do it, we would all be clones of each other in Kenpo. From my understanding, that is not the way Kenpo was supposed to be. That is just my take on it.

-With much respect, Jason Johnson

Mr. Johnson,

From your answer it would appear to me you have an absolutely clear grasp of where you are in the art, and you seem intelligently focused on your goals and objectives relative to your position in the learning process. How refreshing. I salute you sir and I have no diagreement with your perspectives. Thank you for such a cogent response to what is really a complex issue. I hope that you will have the desire, and we will have the opportunity to get together somewhere down the line.:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Kirk
I asked Sigung LaBounty what he felt about doing techniques on
both sides, this saturday. He said that while there can be benefit from doing techs on both sides, he personally feels that 1) the techniques and forms cover both sides already, and 2) the time spent working on the opposite side can be better spent on something else, and more effectively at that.

Amen to that