Techniques: Change or Modification?

[dcence]

Control of the gun is imperative, both hands should be used if possible. As far as edged weapons are concerned, here goes. The Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson) started hosting Police Survival Seminars for law enforcement personal in the 80's. They have also published several books. They had a extremely professional staff and researched edged weapons thoroughly. Their expert consultant & adviser was Dan Inosanto. Five years of research went into those, both police and civillian, who survived edged weapon attacks (some were trained, some weren't). Their conclusion was 'undisputed' that those who survived had control of the knife weilding arm or hand. They put this concept together with an acronym-G.U.N., meaning Grab-Undo-Neutralize.

I think we all agree with you in getting and maintaining control. It is always good to get the perspective of someone on the force. I agree with these concepts, but they may get you only half way there. Putting two hands (or one hand) on a gun will have the attacker do what? - put his other hand on the gun. And you have a wrestling match for control of the gun, which the attacker established before you did. You have a 50/50 chance (maybe less) of getting it away from the attacker by just trying to manipulate it away. What I am saying is don't forget you have feet to kick out their foundation, and an extra hand you can use to strike. These things help the odds of getting a gun away.

It is important to establish control and disarm if you can. What you use to accomplish this will vary with the strength and determination of the attacker.

 

[Karazenpo]

Derek, you make some excellent points, it's obvious that you are knowledgable. I agree on using the feet, we teach that but mostly when immobilizing the wrist with both hands on a knife attack. A gun is a little different. I do what I call a three-prong backup. Say the gun is in attacker's right hand and you are in reach. Simultaneously twist your torso (as if slipping a punch), have your right hand come up under the barrel and your left hand over the top of the gun, sometimes this action also jams the gun-semi-autos may still be able to get one round off if it is what is called 'street ready'-one round already racked in the chamber. As you do this, again this is all simultaneously, you re-direct the gun away and in circle back toward the attacker's face. Not only do you strike his face with the weapon but his finger is still in the trigger guard in which case it is easily broken (in a real life situation it was sheared-documented case). So, essentially you would have to fail in all three areas to get shot. Slipping, re-directing and jamming. The beauty of this technique is that it also can be done with little modification from all directions including a gun threat to your back, head, etc. Try this, see what you think but when doing it full speed make sure your partner does not have his finger in the trigger guard and becareful when you re-direct-it's easy to cap him in the face with the gun! Let me know! Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

 

[dcence]

Derek, you make some excellent points, it's obvious that you are knowledgable. I agree on using the feet, we teach that but mostly when immobilizing the wrist with both hands on a knife attack. A gun is a little different. I do what I call a three-prong backup. Say the gun is in attacker's right hand and you are in reach. Simultaneously twist your torso (as if slipping a punch), have your right hand come up under the barrel and your left hand over the top of the gun, sometimes this action also jams the gun-semi-autos may still be able to get one round off if it is what is called 'street ready'-one round already racked in the chamber. As you do this, again this is all simultaneously, you re-direct the gun away and in circle back toward the attacker's face. Not only do you strike his face with the weapon but his finger is still in the trigger guard in which case it is easily broken (in a real life situation it was sheared-documented case). So, essentially you would have to fail in all three areas to get shot. Slipping, re-directing and jamming. The beauty of this technique is that it also can be done with little modification from all directions including a gun threat to your back, head, etc. Try this, see what you think but when doing it full speed make sure your partner does not have his finger in the trigger guard and becareful when you re-direct-it's easy to cap him in the face with the gun! Let me know! Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

Knowledgeable? Not really. Always questioning, though.

What you describe sounds very similar if not identical to a technique we have "Twisted Rod" if I am reading you correctly. And it is useful.

I guess the point I am making is not in disagreement with you or others, just a reminder that to depend solely/principally upon manipulation with two hands for disarming is to concede the upper hand to the opponent, assuming relatively equal ability between the two involved. The attacker already has his hand on the "handle" of the gun or other weapon and has much more control of the weapon, initially at least, than the attackee. He definitely has the upperhand in control of the weapon. There has to be a turning of the tables to get more control of his weapon than he has himself. So you start at a disadvantage in an uphill battle.

This can be turned to an advantage as you described in the breaking of the finger on the trigger. I question that maintaining a two hand control over a weapon is superior to a one hand control/one hand striking approach. Both approaches are taught in Kenpo and both serve a purpose in their respective circumstances.

When weapons are involved, we all have a tendency, a very natural and reasonable one, to focus on the weapon. The person who can remember his other natural weapons at his disposal has the ability to gain an advantage.

It reminds me of story Mr. Parker used to tell about when he was bodyguarding Elvis. They were in a restaurant/bar and the bartender asked Mr. Parker what he would do if he did this (like so many people do when they want to test if you know what you are doing) -- the bartender grabbed a baseball bat from under the bar and made swinging motion with two hands at Mr. Parker sitting on the stool. Mr. Parker checked the bartender's lead arm at the elbow, stopping the motion of the bat and poked him in the eye. Mr. Parker said that all the guy had to do was let go of the bat with the checked hand and continue the motion of the bat with the other, but the bartender was too focused on using both hands to swing that he didn't think of this. (I don't think think the bartender was trying to knock Mr. Parker's head off, just being a playful idiot. Otherwise, I think Parker would have used something other than an eye poke.) The point was that you can check two hands with one when the person is focused on the weapon and use the other hand to strike.

Thanks for your valuable posts.
Derek