Teaching kids increases the size of your wallet but does not improve your teaching

[theletch1]

I wouldn't say that...have you ever been attacked by 5 kids at once? There is definitely improvement there in your MA abilities. Try suppressing all of them at once, without hurting them! Quite a chore

That's the best drill in the world for learning control. My kids and I study aikido and having them pounce on me en masse is a great way to work locks and make sure the technique is correct. If the tech is off I'd have to try to muscle it and they would get hurt, if the technique is correct I can get it locked in with just enough pressure to stop their motion. At the same time they are allowed to use as much energy on me as they want just to show them that strength/force does not always equal proper technique.

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Ditto! If you can work a class full of kids you can work a class of adults very easily. Plus you have a wider array of techniques, visualizations, and analogys that you can use to teach the adults as well...and since not everyone learns the exact same way, this can make you a more proficient teacher for them and this can also increase their learning curve.

Interesting I've never looked at it that way... How many students do you have?

 

[kenposikh]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I think those are good qualities to develop. But as far as direct development of your Martial Art ability,

That wasn't the question you could be an excellent martial artist with wonderful ability but still not be able to pass this on because you can't teach.

I just wanted to know if people felt that teaching children was worthwhile and does it improve your teaching skills.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by kenposikh
That wasn't the question you could be an excellent martial artist with wonderful ability but still not be able to pass this on because you can't teach.

I just wanted to know if people felt that teaching children was worthwhile and does it improve your teaching skills.

Well wether it is worth while is subjective. I'll let that go. But for improving teaching skills, I think it only helps you be a better teacher for children. The question got started from my post on the Studio Atmosphere thread, where I commented on MA ability, so this is where my comments are being directed.

Ditto! If you can work a class full of kids you can work a class of adults very easily. Plus you have a wider array of techniques, visualizations, and analogys that you can use to teach the adults as well...and since not everyone learns the exact same way, this can make you a more proficient teacher for them and this can also increase their learning curve.

I agree with this in part, as you certainly will be capable of running the class, but, if you are using child vizualizations and analogies in an adult class......

You see, there has to be another level, one that the adults can learn on. I agree it can stem from the same base as what is used for the children's class, but if all you do is teach children, your adult class will not have much to gain from it.(AS FAR AS TECHNIQUE DETAILS).

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by fist of fury
Interesting I've never looked at it that way... How many students do you have?

None...

 

[KenpoTess]

In my opinion.. generalization of Teaching is not a good thing. Everyone learns on a different plane.. each child or adult is such an individual that the teacher has to be well versed in all aspects of teaching.. to Reiterate what I iterated *always wanted to do that *G* .. Some people (matters not the age) learn visually, some verbally, some audio.. (using simplistic terminology here cuz I'm a simple person ) Some combine the schemes. I can be shown something .. over and over I have to see it.. before it sinks in.. and unless I'm standing side-by-side the demonstrator.. you better believe I'll be doing a mirror image of the Tec.. now with the same instructor.. same technique.. hand me a handout with the Tec written down.. I read a line to myself.. Attempt to do the section read.. read the next line.. and by that time I've already forgotten the first thing I was doing..
Give me the same tec.. same Inst. Call out the commands. Over and over It sinks in..
Now not just one of these works for me.. Not just one may work for a child.. a Good teacher needs to Know their Student, regardless of age.. They need to be aware of the students way of learning, and Incorporate All into their Teaching Method.. It works for Kids and adults.. If you're having trouble instilling something into a students head.. Find out why.. it maybe a simple method of tying something else

*my ramblings
Tess

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I agree with this in part, as you certainly will be capable of running the class, but, if you are using child vizualizations and analogies in an adult class......

Then what? Why can't an adult learn from the same visualization or analogy that a child learns from?

You see, there has to be another level, one that the adults can learn on.

Maybe you could clarify "another level".

I agree it can stem from the same base as what is used for the children's class, but if all you do is teach children, your adult class will not have much to gain from it.(AS FAR AS TECHNIQUE DETAILS).

I don't know what to say here except that from my experience I have found...like I said before....that I have more different ways of teaching either adults or children, to allow that each individual understands what I try to convey, due to the fact that I taught children. I had to constantly try new things for the kids, so it caused me to do the same for the adults, which seemed to me to work better for the adults also. I have compared it many times to many other teachers that only taught adults. Adults DO get impatient also...and their minds start wandering just like kids.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
In my opinion.. generalization of Teaching is not a good thing. Everyone learns on a different plane.. each child or adult is such an individual that the teacher has to be well versed in all aspects of teaching.. to Reiterate what I iterated *always wanted to do that *G* .. Some people (matters not the age) learn visually, some verbally, some audio.. (using simplistic terminology here cuz I'm a simple person ) Some combine the schemes. I can be shown something .. over and over I have to see it.. before it sinks in.. and unless I'm standing side-by-side the demonstrator.. you better believe I'll be doing a mirror image of the Tec.. now with the same instructor.. same technique.. hand me a handout with the Tec written down.. I read a line to myself.. Attempt to do the section read.. read the next line.. and by that time I've already forgotten the first thing I was doing..
Give me the same tec.. same Inst. Call out the commands. Over and over It sinks in..
Now not just one of these works for me.. Not just one may work for a child.. a Good teacher needs to Know their Student, regardless of age.. They need to be aware of the students way of learning, and Incorporate All into their Teaching Method.. It works for Kids and adults.. If you're having trouble instilling something into a students head.. Find out why.. it maybe a simple method of tying something else

*my ramblings
Tess

This was another point I was getting ready to make.
Thanks Tess...I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, just to throw in something else...what is it to teach martial arts? What exactly is this thing we're trying to get across to students, as wello as to learn ourselves? Is it just technique and technical mastery? Or are techs and tech mastery just means to an end?

Personally, I think people get so het up about teaching kids partly because the question of teaching kids pokes at something in their own knowledge and training that they would rather not have poked at...

I mean, the knee-jerk response seems to be, "kids can't really be martial artists, because they can't really defend themselves." Well, maybe they're just strong cases of a nasty little fact we all have to consider--there are people out there that WE can't defend ourselves against, and situations that a ball kick, no matter how good, is not going to handle. (What these are, I have no idea. But theoretically speaking...) Another knee-jerk response--"kids can't be taught martial arts, because they just don't have the brain-power for them yet." Well, maybe they're just strong illustrations of intellectual limitations that we all should 'fess up to--or I should, anyway. Or maybe we think, "We should be above teaching kids for money, because this profanes the arts." Maybe it does--but can anybody look in a mirror and say, three times, "Kenpo has never been concerned with mere money and certainly Mr. Parker never was," without blushing or bursting out laughing?

In other words, I agree with everything that's been written so far. I just also think that the issue of teaching kids says something about what's flawed in our own ideas and practices...

If you think kids can't be martial artists, I know a few kids you really need to meet...

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I just also think that the issue of teaching kids says something about what's flawed in our own ideas and practices...

What exactly do you mean by this? I don't understand.

If you think kids can't be martial artists, I know a few kids you really need to meet...

Agreed!

 

[rmcrobertson]

I mean that some of the argument rests upon imposing an absolute contradiction between kids and adults that just isn't justified--and what's more, the reactions against teaching kids SOMETIMES (but only sometimes) have a lot more to say about the limitations of our training/teaching as "adults," than about kids and what they can or cannot learn.

I mean, hell--they seemed to think kids were worth teaching at Shaolin, in all its incarnations both real and fanciful...

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I mean that some of the argument rests upon imposing an absolute contradiction between kids and adults that just isn't justified--and what's more, the reactions against teaching kids SOMETIMES (but only sometimes) have a lot more to say about the limitations of our training/teaching as "adults," than about kids and what they can or cannot learn.

I mean, hell--they seemed to think kids were worth teaching at Shaolin, in all its incarnations both real and fanciful...

Once again I totally agree with you!
Even though they are kids...they are still human!:asian:

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Then what? Why can't an adult learn from the same visualization or analogy that a child learns from?

Maybe you could clarify "another level".

I don't know what to say here except that from my experience I have found...like I said before....that I have more different ways of teaching either adults or children, to allow that each individual understands what I try to convey, due to the fact that I taught children. I had to constantly try new things for the kids, so it caused me to do the same for the adults, which seemed to me to work better for the adults also. I have compared it many times to many other teachers that only taught adults. Adults DO get impatient also...and their minds start wandering just like kids.

Right. You found new ways to teach, but I'm talking about the other direction. What INSIGHT into the art can YOU really get by teaching a kids class? My point is, not as much as an adult class. Adults are going to ask things on a higher intellectual level, which pushes you as the teacher to dig a little deeper. If all someone taught was kids classes, they would never get to the level a teacher of adults would. So the only thing that YOU get is some satisfaction in teaching kids, and the fatter wallet, which is fine too.

Therefor, teaching the kids cannot ADD anything that wouldn't already be learned about the art by teaching adults. This was my only point. I think we're comparing apples and oranges here.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Right. You found new ways to teach, but I'm talking about the other direction. What INSIGHT into the art can YOU really get by teaching a kids class? My point is, not as much as an adult class. Adults are going to ask things on a higher intellectual level, which pushes you as the teacher to dig a little deeper. If all someone taught was kids classes, they would never get to the level a teacher of adults would. So the only thing that YOU get is some satisfaction in teaching kids, and the fatter wallet, which is fine too.

Therefor, teaching the kids cannot ADD anything that wouldn't already be learned about the art by teaching adults. This was my only point. I think we're comparing apples and oranges here.

I have had kids ask questions that compel some deep thought about something, and I have had adults ask questions that were very very simple to answer and did not provoke any thought.

I don't think it is so black and white to be able to say that kids don't cause insight into the martial arts. I believe they contribute to it as much as adults, either by their actions or by their questions.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by KEMPO DAVE
Do you define yourself as a teacher? or a babysitter? A good teacher will adapt the lesson to fit the class. Babysitter only entertains.

If you're talking about teaching kids that are like 4yo, then yeah, IMO, I think that way too young for them, and yes, I do feel like a babysitter. When they're older, then it isnt that bad, but you still need to keep the class fun, otherwise, you'll lose their attention VERY fast.

Mike

 

[don bohrer]

I just wanted to know if people felt that teaching children was worthwhile and does it improve your teaching skills.

Children will challenge you to constantly rethink what you know, and how to convey that information in a simple but fun way. They help you keep it fresh for the adults, and the adults help you keep it real for the kids. Teaching both will balance out your teaching.





Kids remind me to have fun and not take life too serious. That I can't do everything that they can. I need to warm up and stretch cause I'm getting old in the body. That play time can be anytime anywhere. Getting it right on the first try isn't as important as adults make it. Kids live in the here and now while adults carry around everyday all the time!

:fart:

don

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, to follow out the same line I've been arguing (somebody has to be the advocatus diaboli), I don't agree that kids' knowledge is lesser. In fact, I think that this whole, "greater," and "lesser," dichotomy is a misreading of the situation....and very comforting to us adults.

So about six years ago, I'm still puzzling over a question my first teacher gave me: "Why is Gathering Clouds called Gathering Clouds?" Boy, did I ever have beautiful Zen-like answers.

So I'm teaching this nine year old--at the time, he'd been a student since he was four. I drop the question on him. Aha! Robert-with-the education-and-the PhD thinks. Now I've got ye, me pretty!

Kid looks at me like I'm mentally retarded, and says--with virtually no consideration--"Well, because..." and gives a far better, more-direct answer than I'd come up with in the past two years.

Beyond learning the clear fact that I'm an idiot, what can we learn from this?

 

[stickarts]

When parents fill out the registration form in our school, their goals for their children are almost always for them to gain confidence and discipline. seldom, if ever, do we see self defense marked down for the young kids as being a reason why they are there. also, parents appreciate the value of having their kids learn to interact with other children, especially kids that have no siblings to play with. Parents on this forum know what i mean and understand the value of this! We get overwhelming positive feedback from parents about how the classes help their children.
As far as improving teaching, one thing i look for in grading advanced instructors is their ability to teach all kinds of people and all ages. The most impressive instructors know how to connect with all ages and many different types of people.
I guess a question is, as a teacher, are you there just to teach the physical moves or are you there to help develop a person, be it kid or adult?
I have also trained adults and at times, felt like a "babysitter!" LOL!

 

[JD_Nelson]

I think if one cannot understand a basic principle as an adult, then he or she is making the principle to hard.

Even if the children are picking up just the movements, then at a more developed age wouldn't the principles seem to come to them maybe a tad easier. When I am learning a new technique, i have many many thoughts and ideas going through my head while I am just trying to learn the ideal.

If you can have a child understand a principle, then hopefully an adult can pick up on the same idea.


KISS principle

Salute

JD

 

[kenposikh]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Well, to follow out the same line I've been arguing (somebody has to be the advocatus diaboli), I don't agree that kids' knowledge is lesser. In fact, I think that this whole, "greater," and "lesser," dichotomy is a misreading of the situation....and very comforting to us adults.

So about six years ago, I'm still puzzling over a question my first teacher gave me: "Why is Gathering Clouds called Gathering Clouds?" Boy, did I ever have beautiful Zen-like answers.

So I'm teaching this nine year old--at the time, he'd been a student since he was four. I drop the question on him. Aha! Robert-with-the education-and-the PhD thinks. Now I've got ye, me pretty!

Kid looks at me like I'm mentally retarded, and says--with virtually no consideration--"Well, because..." and gives a far better, more-direct answer than I'd come up with in the past two years.

Beyond learning the clear fact that I'm an idiot, what can we learn from this?

THat kids can sometimes see things more clearly because their brains are not cluttered up with adult stuff. What was his reply by the way