te waza too fiddly?

[MartialIntent]

The point of a sucker punch is you are not aware of it--plain and simple. You can't position, or defend unless you're aware. If you were aware--it's not a sucker punch! You don't see them, you feel them.

In regards to techniques, of whatever fashion..there are counters to them, or factors that occur during a fight that allow for their failure. You might think you have a good lock or hold on them, then bam! As a point my friend was bouncing the other night, and is a longtime Aikidoka. He was "walking" someone out with a "secure" hold, and whack! Got hit on the side of the head. It happens, nothing you can do about it, just regain control.

OK, I think maybe we're getting lost in the semantics here, but that's ok, no harm done.

With respect to your friend the aikidoka, I would only say in a genuinely non-condescending way that there are "secure" holds and there are "secure" holds. And if he took one then perhaps that was not a watertight secure hold at all.

And yes of course you are right, these things can happen, I'll be the first to admit that and hands up yes I have got caught before too. But I think there's a complacency which your anecdote illustrates and it's that there's only potential for sucker punches when the practitioner is remiss with their awareness. I mean, the person whom your friend was escorting off premises has a free hand or an unrestrained head, well, either lock that down too or make bl00dy certain you're not in the firing line.

And I certainly mean no disrespect here to you or your colleague. Far from it. I've been on the wrong end of these things too as the result of mistakes on my part. *Not* a problem with my Aikido in any way, shape or form but rather a problem with my awareness that's all.

Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

That's cool. Awareness is the key to it all. Lack of it leads to bad things.

Just for the record, all holds have counters, and are not guaranteed, no matter how proficient one is at them. Many factors go on for real, that change from second to second--literally! And you have no control over them either. (that's what makes it fun--right?)

My responses have come from seeing a bunch of threads of how people will deal with "sucker attacks" doing this and doing that. Of course they are all "successful" methods too--LOL! It's very annoying to me having been a victim of sucker attacks, as well as a user of them. There is no defense other than their prevention by being aware in the first place. Even this doesn't assure their prevention. They still happen, nothing you can do except roll with them. Look at the Israeli's, they are more preventitive, and aware than anyone, and still bombings happen successfully.

 

[MartialIntent]

That's cool. Awareness is the key to it all. Lack of it leads to bad things.

Just for the record, all holds have counters, and are not guaranteed, no matter how proficient one is at them. Many factors go on for real, that change from second to second--literally! And you have no control over them either. (that's what makes it fun--right?)

My responses have come from seeing a bunch of threads of how people will deal with "sucker attacks" doing this and doing that. Of course they are all "successful" methods too--LOL! It's very annoying to me having been a victim of sucker attacks, as well as a user of them. There is no defense other than their prevention by being aware in the first place. Even this doesn't assure their prevention. They still happen, nothing you can do except roll with them. Look at the Israeli's, they are more preventitive, and aware than anyone, and still bombings happen successfully.

I take your points of course - all valid and with merit. To digress, I would say that the Israeli's have that singular problem that any nation dealing with paramilitaries has and that is the unknown and unpredictable nature of the attack which renders much of the prevention useless.

The situation with an opponent [or even multiple opponents] is different. Thai arts often use the eight limbs notion - the average fighter uses more like 4 or 5 and the punk in the parking lot probably 1 or 2. My point is that whatever the level of the opponent, he has *finite* resources when it comes to strikes and therefore to an extent [depending upon the practitioner] the sucker punch *can* be prepared for. To use your analogy, if the Palestinians only had 8 active terrorist operatives, then the Israeli's could man-mark them, put someone onto each of them, watch and follow every move and limit their freedom however possible. I digress but I hope that works for you

Respects!

 

[theletch1]

Only the first punch can be considered a "sucker" punch. After the first one has been thown you are VERY aware that there is a threat directed at you and you must therefore become aware of every aspect of your opponent. Throwing another punch or attempting to ura a technique is always a possibility but is not, in my book, the definition of a "sucker" punch.

 

[Hand Sword]

Exactly what I was saying! Thank you.

 

[Hand Sword]

I take your points of course - all valid and with merit. To digress, I would say that the Israeli's have that singular problem that any nation dealing with paramilitaries has and that is the unknown and unpredictable nature of the attack which renders much of the prevention useless.

The situation with an opponent [or even multiple opponents] is different. Thai arts often use the eight limbs notion - the average fighter uses more like 4 or 5 and the punk in the parking lot probably 1 or 2. My point is that whatever the level of the opponent, he has *finite* resources when it comes to strikes and therefore to an extent [depending upon the practitioner] the sucker punch *can* be prepared for. To use your analogy, if the Palestinians only had 8 active terrorist operatives, then the Israeli's could man-mark them, put someone onto each of them, watch and follow every move and limit their freedom however possible. I digress but I hope that works for you

Respects!

O.k. The Israeli thing was a stretch, just trying to show a point that even the best preperation is not a guarantee.

Preparation might come only if your somewhere and have committed yourself beforehand to fight. Maybe you caught someone from the corner of your eye or whatever, and you "position" yourself correctly. Aside from that, you got caught unaware and got hit. It happens to us all, we can't always be aware.
With regards to techniques. If you are in the middle of when, there is no longer the element of surprise (meaning no "sucker" attack). You are already in an engagement. If you get caught in the middle of a technique, it's not a sucker attack, You just fell asleep at the wheel, didn't follow through, slipped, etc..

Does this work for you? (I'm rested now, so I can explain it better-LOL!)

 

[MartialIntent]

With regards to techniques. If you are in the middle of when, there is no longer the element of surprise (meaning no "sucker" attack). You are already in an engagement. If you get caught in the middle of a technique, it's not a sucker attack, You just fell asleep at the wheel, didn't follow through, slipped, etc..

Does this work for you? (I'm rested now, so I can explain it better-LOL!)

OK HS, I've forgot what this thread was supposed to be about now but you just know I can't let you away with this... when you are in the middle of a tech [particularly a protracted Aikido tech where the opponent can be flung around or played with for a bit until you decide where to put him] there STILL is the potential for a "sucker" punch and it arises out of complacency in the aikidoka - either too focussed on the environment / other opponents or unaware of where the current opponents limbs are or not maintaining proper distance or positioning relative to the opponent and his available weapons, I mean if I have control of your right arm and shoulder, the second I lapse concentration and allow you to come around me clockwise then bang! he's right there with the sucker punch [a surprise strike or whatever you want to call it] just exactly as he would have been at the outset.

Though maybe you are arguing on the definition of "sucker" punch? If so I defer to your semantic knowledge and concede the argument. If however you are referring to handling and or preparing for a surprise attack whether in or out of a technique then I am more than happy to oblige and argue, hehe.

Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

If you are in a technique, it should not be a surprise, as you are in an engagement. You are mentally aware of being in a fight. If you get hit doing this... well......shame on you!

As was already said, a "sucker" punch is the opening hit, that you didn't see, you just felt.

 

[MartialIntent]

If you are in a technique, it should not be a surprise, as you are in an engagement.

Nope, don't agree. Just because you're in a technique doesn't preclude an element of surprise. In randori, I have used this too as uke on an overcomplacent or just plain cocky nage.

Respects!

 

[theletch1]

Ok, we've allowed the thread to drop into a long discussion of the definition of what a sucker punch is. Does that make us all a bunch of suckers? Let's get back to the original point of the thread...te waza and all the fine motor skills involved in these techniques. My answer to the original question would be a definite yes...and um, no.:ultracool Te waza such as shihonage do seem to have a lot of moving parts and, for the beginner, are very "fiddly". Even for someone comfortable with the techs they can be a problem during the adrenaline rush of combat. You simply have to train these techs with as much "real world" feel as possible to allow yourself to overcome the loss of fine motor skills during a true conflict.

 

[Jenna]

Ok, we've allowed the thread to drop into a long discussion of the definition of what a sucker punch is. Does that make us all a bunch of suckers? Let's get back to the original point of the thread...te waza and all the fine motor skills involved in these techniques. My answer to the original question would be a definite yes...and um, no.:ultracool Te waza such as shihonage do seem to have a lot of moving parts and, for the beginner, are very "fiddly". Even for someone comfortable with the techs they can be a problem during the adrenaline rush of combat. You simply have to train these techs with as much "real world" feel as possible to allow yourself to overcome the loss of fine motor skills during a true conflict.

Hear hear Jeff! Too much talking and not enough walking, LOL I think you're spot on and that the key really is practise no substitute because there's a definite FEEL to techniques and positioning that can only progress into the necessary improvisation and adaptation with sustained, determined and directed practise. So Jeff, no wave of your magic Aikido wand then or no downloading Aikido into your noggin as in the Matrix?? LOL. Wouldn't that be just great. Though I wonder if you could download any art into your head and muscle memories would you still pick your Nihon Goshin? Or would you be a big bad grappler or wing chun guy? Ha! now I really am off-thread. Oh well, them's the vagaries of a meandering mind probably

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna